Idiots suggesting to fill W126's with Propane or Mix with R12 for AC - Auto-Trend Repairs and Service Information Forums

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Idiots suggesting to fill W126's with Propane or Mix with R12 for AC

Date: 02:42 AM Jun 25, 2009

Sometimes it is better to let them learn the HARD way.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Once again it has been proven...

I tried to warn people that using propane in the AC system would increase the risk of fire should it ever escape the system.

My thank you was slander, ridicule by people whom are not mechanics, and then banishment.

Never before have I captured the moment this well. Here we can clearly see that BenzWorld.org is not interested in having any professional advice given in their form, for fear that long time enthusiast might be put in their place when they offer up their rediculous ideas.

If people whom read this fail to realize what I speak of, then there is nothing I can do but buy their vehicles they cant afford later down the road.

-- Edited by SELLC on Sunday 28th of June 2009 03:42:54 AM

stoma · Member

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

I agree... One of the major advocates of this silly Idea (MrAmay) of BenwWorld.org is admitting that he is having problems with his AC system, yet doesnt know whats going on.

I find it funny that he can tell people to put this crap in their car, yet is having such problems with his system. I laugh my ass off every time he casually claims to smell leaking propane in the engine compartment yet brushes it off as no big deal. He even claimed to have taken a full chage of Propane that saturated/stained his clothing while trying to rig something up. Good thing he wasnt smoking!

Stoma is about the only person I would want to see behind the wheel of a Propane AC system.

Date: 10:15 PM Nov 20, 2010

All this talk about gas leaking into the car through the evaporator is fine but either way you are going to be breathing in either r12 134a or propane. The claim is that prpoane is unsafe and it is but your r12 and 134a are also flamable and if you breath them in because of a leak they are even more toxic to your health than propane. The only reason these refridgeration technicians promote these expensive products is for the money cause there is non to be made recharging with propane. These so-called experts get annoyed with us for doing things the unconventional way but sometimes there expert advise can be just as exasperating to us because we know that money and not common sense motivates them to promote inaccurate information. I have personally only ever used propane in my ac system and it works fine, just as good if not better than there r12 or 134a products. I have had a leak but never an explosion and never will have one. Open a propane bottle and hold a lighter up to it and i guarantee you couldnt get it to ignite even if you tried. Conditions have to be ideal for propane to ignite and those condions are not going to present themselves at anytime while you are operating your vehicle. If you smell propane have enough sense to fix the leak before you recharge your system. If you have an r12 sytem or 134a system and your evaporator is leaking you are going to be breathing in R gas and not even know it because its odorless and i will tell ya; I'd rather breath in a few wiffs of propane verses R gas anyday. R gas is far more hazardous to you than propane but hey, these experts wouldnt want to admit to that would they. They dont have to cause they just dont appreciate that the majority of people are not going to buy into there bullshit advice forever and keep doing things the expensive way forever based on there claim that what we are doing is unsafe when infact it is not unsafe. Let me also add that if a propane system leaks it is not going to leak fast but rather very slowly and even if a big should occur there is not enough refridgerant in the system to build up a hazardous level of gas, it leaks and disipates quickly into the surrounding air. I operate a school bus that runs on propane and whenever i start it in the mourning i always choke it. This always gives off propane fumes in around the engine area cause the smell is obvious but guess what? THE PROPANE NEVER IGNITES!!! And folks, please dont believe that any of these technicians have the saftey of you or your children at heart when they tell you not to charge your AC with propane. The truth is that they couldn't give a shit about you or your family but rather they care more about you coming to them to buy an overpriced product that is ok to use because its government approved. Okay Im done making my point and if any of you technicians want to argue back at me, save your breath and blow it out your ass cause your just a bunch of dummies that were not smart enough to get educated in something that had some real value. Does that hurt your feelings, well guess what, I dont give a shit about you either. I will keep my money.

Date: 10:21 PM Nov 20, 2010

Hey SELLC, read my comment posted for nov 20/2010

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

I personally have seen a great deal of AC system failures working in the business. I have seen front compressor bearings glow red, I have seen evaporators let loose in the cabin, I have also seen a great deal of collision damage.

While I understand there are a great deal of city and municipal buses and trucks running on propane it's completely different. 1st of all these vehicles are using propane for FUEL, not refrigerant. Anything using propane is usually a Bus or payload tractor of some kind.

What you fail to realize is propane used for fuel is entirely different that using it for refrigerant. Your evaporator core could leak, causing the cabin to become a bomb. You could get in an accident and the propane could be the catalyst for fire.

I myself would never recommend someone to use propane in an Automotive AC system. While I understand propane is basically refrigerant it's no different than trying to light your BBQ grill with Gasoline rather than BBQ lighter fluid. It's the burn rate guy.

Propane is a BAD IDEA for Automotive AC systems. Period.

Date: 12:48 AM Nov 23, 2010

You have seen alot of compressor bearings glow red, evaporators let loose in the cabin and alot of collison damage but you have not ever seen an automotive ac unit explode or catch fire because they were using propane. How do i know that? Because it has never ever happened to anyone in automotive history. SELLC, did you know that R12 is made up of 80% propane and 20% isobutene. Isobutene is used in the production of high octane fuel !!!! The properties of R12 make it more likely to explode than just using strait propane. But guess what? R12 was not frowned upon for years and it was govt approved for many years. Infact many people still use it and even you yourself view it as a viable refridgerant aside from the fact that now the govt says its destructive to the environment which is another load of horse shit that spews from the mouths of these crooks. Cow farts are more destructive to the ozone than R12 so maybe we should just kill all the cows now.Why else is propane safe? Because the ac system in your vehicle is void of oxygen which is essential in making it combustable. You cant ignite it. Did anyone reading this realize that you need oxygen to ignite propane--Duhh--. Also your propane system only holds about 12 ounzes or 1 cup of refridgerant but you technicians make an AC leak sound like the customer just broke a gas companies main gas line and now they are going to have an explosion thats going to consume them and everyone else around for miles. Do you know how absolutely ridicules you sound when you promote your lies to the public? Its my objective to expose you thieves for what you are and shed some light on this subject for the hard working families that dont deserve to be screwed out of their hard earned money for overpriced products that are no better than the cheaper product. Just because you pay more does not mean anything at times even though i will say at times you get what you pay for-- "but this is not one of those times".

SELLC, i would like you to explain to me again how my mention of propane fumes under the hood of a bus is completely different.Oh now i remember, its because the propane is being used as fuel, not refridgerant but guess what? Back in the 90's and early 2000's propane was not only being burned as fuel but also being used as refridgerant. What the hell do you think R12 is, its 80% propane and 20% isobutene which is used in the production of high octane fuel. Another thing i would like to say SELLC is that enough propane leaked into the cabin of a vehicle with just the right amount of oxygen could explode but your whole system only holds 12 ounzes of refridgerant and the cabin always has fresh air flow so you tell me how your going to saturate the inside of a vehicle with propane and create an explosion unless you do it on purpose? Do you not think that someone in the vehicle might smell the propane and roll a window down--Duhh-- they probably would unless they have no sense of smell.

Hey SELLC i bet that compressor bearing that turned red hot was not because the ac pump had propane in it but because it did not have sufficient oil in it. There is a difference. I bet that red hot bearing did not ignite the propane or refridgerant in the system either did it. That evaporator that leaked in the cabin of the car did not really "LET LOOSE" as if to release all its refridgerant at once did it but rather it was probably a very slow leak that was disipated by the air flow within the cabin whether from the windows being down or the fan being turned on.

Now i would like to address the public on this matter and say that if you dont have the money to buy a higher priced refridgerant for your vehicle YOU CAN USE PROPANE AS A REFRIDGERANT. I not only use it on my own vehicles but i also use it on every other ac unit i repair and its cheap like water.Also, never in my 20 years of doing this have i ever had an explosion or even heard of anyone having an explosion. I hope in reading this you can see that alot of people out there will say what ever it takes to make a living off the backs and hard work of others by promoting lies and misleading the public. Its too bad that sometimes this information comes to us at times from other hard working people who may not realize that they are giving out inaccurate information because thats what they have been taught and have never examined the facts of the matter as SELLC obviously has failed to do. SELLC if you are promoting these lies on purpose please do us all a favor and remove yourself fom this page or if on the other hand this is information you have been brainwashed into believing please educate yourself a little better before you attempt to educate everyone else.

If i have offended anyone with these remarks I'm not sorry. It was not my intention to offend anyone. biggrin

Date: 08:52 PM Nov 23, 2010

Anyone ever suggested fixing the leaks?

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

questrade wrote:

You have seen alot of compressor bearings glow red, evaporators let loose in the cabin and alot of collison damage but you have not ever seen an automotive ac unit explode or catch fire because they were using propane. How do i know that? Because it has never ever happened to anyone in automotive history.

You do not hear about these things because not many people are dumb enough to use Propane in an automotive AC system. I can assure you that if anyone did have serious consequences as a result of using Propane in an automotive AC system they certainly would "Never" admit to it. Would you?

Do you not think that someone in the vehicle might smell the propane and roll a window down--Duhh-- they probably would unless they have no sense of smell.

If I smelled propane in a vehicle I'd do more than just roll the window down. I'd GTFO.

Hey SELLC i bet that compressor bearing that turned red hot was not because the ac pump had propane in it but because it did not have sufficient oil in it. There is a difference. I bet that red hot bearing did not ignite the propane or refridgerant in the system either did it.

You are aware that compressor clutch bearings are external, thus having nothing to do with what refrigerant was in it. Just shows how little you know about automotive AC systems in general, and that your recommendations should be considered anything but a professional opinion.

That evaporator that leaked in the cabin of the car did not really "LET LOOSE" as if to release all its refridgerant at once did it but rather it was probably a very slow leak that was disipated by the air flow within the cabin whether from the windows being down or the fan being turned on.

No usually when they pop, they do just that. No amount of topping off will hold on an evaporator that has cracked. A slow leak should be fixed and then refilled with the recommended refrigerant so that the REAL mechanic who services the system later down the road isn't contaminating his equipment.

Now i would like to address the public on this matter and say that if you dont have the money to buy a higher priced refridgerant for your vehicle YOU CAN USE PROPANE AS A REFRIDGERANT.

This statement above is absolute bullshit and propane IS NOT considered safe for automotive AC systems.

I not only use it on my own vehicles but i also use it on every other ac unit i repair and its cheap like water.

Do you live in a third world nation? I know things are getting bad in the USA, but if you are just too lazy to fix whatever leak is causing the system to go low, then maybe you shouldn't have AC? A properly sealed system should hold pressure forever, however in cases with Automotive AC systems where parts are exposed to constantly changing engine heat, vibration
and possible collision related impact there is a CLEAR reason why the industry is not using straight propane.

SELLC if you are promoting these lies on purpose please do us all a favor and remove yourself fom this page or if on the other hand this is information you have been brainwashed into believing please educate yourself a little better before you attempt to educate everyone else.

Look, I am all for saving some money where I can, but what you suggest is just plain DANGEROUS. I don't think there is ONE person here who would support your claims. Yes propane may be less expensive, however Propane is never to be used in an Automotive AC system.

If i have offended anyone with these remarks I'm not sorry. It was not my intention to offend anyone.
The only people who are offended by your remarks are mechanics who might have to work on a system you have contaminated, or the poor passengers who unknowingly take a ride in your vehicle when your luck runs out. Usually in circumstances like this the idiot who tried to save a few bucks escapes without harm, while an innocent person pays the cost of your education with serious bodily injury.

DONT DO IT!

Date: 03:36 AM Nov 24, 2010

Look, I am all for saving some money where I can, but what you suggest is just plain DANGEROUS. I don't think there is ONE person here who would support your claims. Yes propane may be less expensive, however Propane is never to be used in an Automotive AC system.

SELLC i have convincingly refuted all the claims you have made here and to continue arguing this issue is a waste of my time. But i do believe that the public will be able to see through the lies on this matter and decide for themselves. If i knew for a second that what i was saying was inaccurate or worst yet Harmful to the public, i would never promote the use of propane in ac applications but your just plain wrong on this one guy. In the end I really dont care what choice the public makes on this subject because all R products are safe including propane which is an R12. All im doing here is letting the public know that there is a cheaper way that is just as safe. On a personal note SELLC i think you should be ashamed of yourself for contributing to the lies that have been shamlessly promoted on this subject to steal money from other people. I would agree with you that you are all for saving money where you can but you sure are not all for saving money when it comes to the general public but on this subject that is where i come in. What i think really disappoints me regarding yourself SELLC is that rather than think for yourself, you let other people do the thinking for you and so you just say whatever it is you have been taught even though you have no proof to back up what you say. However i do also realize that this is not about being right or wrong, its about you making money so you will say what ever is in the best interest of yourself and the industry regardless of whether or not your wrong and i think thats probably the bigest reason i have no respect for you. However i did not make all these replies for you, i made them for the public so at least someone could see through your lies and benefit from what i have said. I'm done here, Questrade signing off. Everyone stay cool.

Do you live in a third world nation? I know things are getting bad in the USA, but if you are just too lazy to fix whatever leak is causing the system to go low, then maybe you shouldn't have AC? A properly sealed system should hold pressure forever, however in cases with Automotive AC systems where parts are exposed to constantly changing engine heat, vibration
and possible collision related impact there is a CLEAR reason why the industry is not using straight propane.

An ac system that holds pressure forever? Are you still dreaming? hundreds of thousands of vehicles slowly leak refridgerant but its not like they are refilling them every couple days. The majority of these leaks are so slow that they only need to be topped up every 6months to a year and for 10 cents worth of propane its practically free. Remember R12 is propane.

This statement is absolute bullshit and propane IS NOT considered safe for automotive AC systems.

Okay, my advice is bullshit is it? I think we all know whoes spreading the bullshit information here. After all you have still not addressed why it is that R12 is still being sold as a viable and safe refridgerant when it is made up of 80% propane and 20% isobutene which is used in the production of high octane fuel. I went to Canadian tire today and they had boxes full of R12 forsale that i could purchase for $25.00 per can. Why would i pay that much for a bottle of propane when i can put the same dam thing in my ac for .10cents!!! If it is so wrong to use propane, then why the hell do i have an R12 system on my car!!!
R12 IS PROPANE!!! and its still being sold and used as a viable refridgerant for automotive ac applications. Not considered safe for automotive AC systems??? you say. Anyone who reads my response to your so called professional knows where the bullshit is coming from.

No usually when they pop, they do just that. No amount of topping off will hold on an evaporator that has cracked. A slow leak should be fixed and then refilled with the recommended refrigerant so that the REAL mechanic who services the system later down the road isn't contaminating his equipment.

Rarely if ever will an evaporator crack or as you say "pop". Its usually the line fitting attached to the evaporator that leaks. But just to give you the benefit of the doubt lets say the dam thing popped like a baloon, who cares, Whats your point? Nothing is going to happen anyway and besides your talking about shit that never happens other than in your imagination. Hey SELLC i just let out a big fart in my car, umm should i put my cigarrette out.

You are aware that compressor clutch bearings are external, thus having nothing to do with what refrigerant was in it. Just shows how little you know about automotive AC systems in general, and that your recommendations should be considered anything but a professional opinion.

You said front compressor bearing, not clutch bearing genius. The shaft coming out of the front of the compressor rides on a bearing and is in close contact with the refrigerant and even if that bearing did get red hot the seal would have failed and the refridgerant would have leaked out far before the bearing ever got hot and guess what happens when you loose your refridgerant. THE COMPRESSOR STOPS RUNNING!!! because of a lack of refriderant pressure in the system. Its very evident here SELLC that you really dont know what your talking about. I honestly dont understand your reasoning for arguing your false claims.

If I smelled propane in a vehicle I'd do more than just roll the window down. I'd GTFO

Well when i was in school and rode the bus, they all ran on propane and often after the the bus was fueled up the cab wreaked from propane and guess what nothing ever happened ever. Or when you choke it in the mourning to start it, the whole engine compartment wreaks of propane and you guessed it, NOTHING EVER HAPPENED!!! The chances of you experiencing physical injury from using propane as refridgerant are so remote that you would have a better chance of being hit by an asteroid while driving down the road. The only way that 12 oz of propane could maybe ignite is if you did it on purpose and in just the right way but you would probably have to try numerous times because it is just plain difficult to ignite propane.

You do not hear about these things because not many people are dumb enough to use Propane in an automotive AC system. I can assure you that if anyone did have serious consequences as a result of using Propane in an automotive AC system they certainly would "Never" admit to it. Would you?

SELLC please end these ridiculous replies by trying to pretend you even have an argument here. Many people do use propane as refridgerant and if they were blowing themselves up or injuring themselves it would be all over the 6:00 news so you tell me how you can hide something like that from the public. And if nobody is stupid enough as you say to use propane then you tell me why its so commonly debated. Heres the answer sherlock, its because people are using it and know from first hand experience with it that it is safe. I being one of them.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Anonymous wrote:

I would agree with you that you are all for saving money where you can but you sure are not all for saving money when it comes to the general public but on this subject that is where i come in. What i think really disappoints me regarding yourself SELLC is that rather than think for yourself, you let other people do the thinking for you and so you just say whatever it is you have been taught even though you have no proof to back up what you say. However i do also realize that this is not about being right or wrong, its about you making money so you will say what ever is in the best interest of yourself and the industry regardless of whether or not your wrong and i think thats probably the bigest reason i have no respect for you.

Sorry bub... I use either 134a or R12 for my own vehicle. I DO NOT USE PROPANE FOR MY AUTOMOTIVE AC SYSTEM. Furthermore I have said many times in here that AC work is not the cornerstone of our business. We might do two or three AC jobs per year, and even then we sublet the evac and recharge. So your claims are invalid once again.

An ac system that holds pressure forever? Are you still dreaming? hundreds of thousands of vehicles slowly leak refridgerant but its not like they are refilling them every couple days. The majority of these leaks are so slow that they only need to be topped up every 6months to a year and for 10 cents worth of propane its practically free. Remember R12 is propane.

Are you crazy? I have owned refridgerators that were over 30 years old! Hell vehicles usually make it 10 years before the little o-rings start to degrade. Usually it's the compressor that lets loose well before the system ever starts to leak. If you are having to top off every 6 to 12 months there is something wrong, and you are failing to fix the problem.

Okay, my advice is bullshit is it? I think we all know whoes spreading the bullshit information here. Anyone who reads my response to your so called professional knows where the bullshit is coming from.

Yes your advice is bullshit. Here is why, (1st) You must not be a licenced or certified mechanic or you would NEVER be trying to suggest people pump propane in their AC systems (2nd) If you were a mechanic and charged a customer to put propane in their vehicle you would likely lose your licence, and possibly be liable for any damage that would result from using said propane. (3rd) NAME ONE REPAIR SHOP THAT WILL INSTALL PROPANE IN A CUSTOMERS VEHICLE!? I am not talking about your next door neighbor who does work on the side, I am talking about someone certified and registered to perform repairs on automobiles.

Rarely if ever will an evaporator crack or as you say "pop". Its usually the line fitting attached to the evaporator that leaks. But just to give you the benefit of the doubt lets say the dam thing popped like a baloon, who cares, Whats your point? Nothing is going to happen anyway and besides your talking about shit that never happens other than in your imagination. Hey SELLC i just let out a big fart in my car, umm should i put my cigarrette out.

Put a match right up to your ass the next time you fart. Guess whats going to happen when that butt methane crosses the flame. Are we to assume you can fart with enough pressure to pressurize 2 lbs of gas to liquid forum? If so you need to get that checked out while you are at it.

You said front compressor bearing, not clutch bearing genius. The shaft coming out of the front of the compressor rides on a bearing and is in close contact with the refrigerant and even if that bearing did get red hot the seal would have failed and the refridgerant would have leaked out far before the bearing ever got hot and guess what happens when you loose your refridgerant. THE COMPRESSOR STOPS RUNNING!!! because of a lack of refriderant pressure in the system. Its very evident here SELLC that you really dont know what your talking about. I honestly dont understand your reasoning for arguing your false claims.

You can't be serious with this garbage can you? Everyone knows that the front bearing on a compressor is the clutch unit. How many people do you know of that rebuild their own AC pumps?  The idea that you even considered the notion that anyone would be able to see the "internal" bearings of the compressor turn red is quite laughable. Also you should know that a front compressor clutch bearing that is glowing red will not cut the compressor until AFTER the gas has escaped, and even then "If" the clutch released it would continue to get hotter until the belt broke. But nice try.

Well when i was in school and rode the bus, they all ran on propane and often after the the bus was fueled up the cab wreaked from propane and guess what nothing ever happened ever. Or when you choke it in the mourning to start it, the whole engine compartment wreaks of propane and you guessed it, NOTHING EVER HAPPENED!!! The chances of you experiencing physical injury from using propane as refridgerant are so remote that you would have a better chance of being hit by an asteroid while driving down the road. The only way that 12 oz of propane could maybe ignite is if you did it on purpose and in just the right way but you would probably have to try numerous times because it is just plain difficult to ignite propane.

I think everyone has been on a bus and has smelled the rather SMALL amounts of propane due to the rather potent additive they mix with the propane. There is a big difference between some lingering trace odors and 1-2 lb's of compressed liquid propane. By the way, it's not very hard to ignite propane.

12 oz is not even a pound! Most newer systems require almost two pounds, older ones even more. I don't think you realize what 12 oz of liquid propane would amount to when de-pressurized into the atmosphere. It's more than your little bung hole could ever release when passing gas, and more than enough to create an explosive mixture within the confines of even the biggest automobile cockpits.

It's called expansion, and when released to the atmosphere it expands exponentially. Do you know how Nitrous Oxide works? Or how about the whole liquid to gas expansion process?

SELLC please end these ridiculous replies by trying to pretend you even have an argument here. Many people do use propane as refridgerant and if they were blowing themselves up or injuring themselves it would be all over the 6:00 news so you tell me how you can hide something like that from the public. And if nobody is stupid enough as you say to use propane then you tell me why its so commonly debated. Heres the answer sherlock, its because people are using it and know from first hand experience with it that it is safe. I being one of them.

The only ridiculous replies here have come from an anonymous poster who does not want to be held accountable for his ignorance. Putting propane in an AC system seems like something a terrorist would do in an effort to create a potential car bomb. There are some ignorant people out there (yourself included) who stand to get themselves hurt trying this ignorant act of disparity in an effort to save a few measly bucks. The Irony here is that many who seek to use propane instead of the proper refrigerant stand to be burnt; literally. So while you may feel cool now, it could end up burning you.

A leaky AC system with propane is really no different than a leaky fuel line or gas tank. It's just a matter of time before the fumes find a spark.

I am only taking the time to respond so other people know that your ideas are dangerous and not worth the risk.

-- Edited by SELLC on Wednesday 24th of November 2010 05:16:08 AM

Date: 12:21 PM Nov 24, 2010

I am only taking the time to respond so other people know that your ideas are dangerous and not worth the risk.

You have still not addressed why it is that R12 is still being sold as a viable and safe refridgerant when it is made up of 80% propane and 20% isobutene which is used in the production of high octane fuel. I went to Canadian tire today and they had boxes full of R12 forsale that i could purchase for $25.00 per can. Why would i pay that much for a bottle of propane when i can put the same dam thing in my ac for .10cents!!! If it is so wrong to use propane, then why the hell do i have an R12 system on my car!!!
R12 IS PROPANE!!! and its still being sold and used as a viable refridgerant for automotive ac applications. Not considered safe for automotive AC systems??? you say. Well need i remind you of a recent comment made by yourself. Take a look.
......
Sorry bub... I use either 134a or R12 for my own vehicle. I DO NOT USE PROPANE FOR MY AUTOMOTIVE AC SYSTEM. Furthermore I have said many times in here that AC work is not the cornerstone of our business. We might do two or three AC jobs per year, and even then we sublet the evac and recharge.

Excuse me? what was that you said? did you say you use R12 but donot use propane? I think this is where we disagree the most, however my point is based on the solid fact that  R12 is propane, infact 80% of it is propane and no one denies that but if you do, well your just not being honest and based on what i have heard from you so far your comments have not been sincere or logical at all. Infact R12 is a refined propane which means its even more explosive than regular propane because its mixed with isobutene used in the production of high octane fuel, thats right, it actually makes the fuel more explosive. SO I NEED YOU TO ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTION FOR ME.

Why is it that you use R12 which is a more explosive form of propane but when it comes to using a safer product like regular propane you are against it?
reason # 1- you did not know that
             #2- you dont care, you just want to be right even though you know your wrong
             #3- I have made this point twice and both times you ignore it because you know that this point alone proves everything you have said on this subject is dishonest and misleading.

PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION and if i dont get an honest reply this time well then Im done with you.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Look... This is a DEAD ISSUE.

PROPANE IS NOT SAFE FOR AUTOMOTIVE AC SYSTEMS PERIOD!

You have much to learn, and I only hope you learn before something bad happens to you or some innocent passenger.

The answers to all your questions are here-

http://www.aa1car.com/library/tr497.htm

I don't feel like re-typing everything, but in a nutshell everything I have told you above is covered in greater detail.

Once again, straight propane should NEVER be used in an automotive AC system! Period.

Quote shown below is from above mentioned article-

------------------ QUOTE FROM AA1CAR.COM WEBSITE ------------------

ILLEGAL REFRIGERANTS

Another class of alternative refrigerants has also appeared on the scene: illegal refrigerants. Some products that have been introduced (OZ-12, HC-12a, R-176 and R-405a) do not meet the EPA criteria for environmental acceptability or safety. Flammable refrigerants such as OZ-12 and HC-12a that contain large quantities of hydrocarbons (propane, butane, isobutane, etc.) have been declared illegal for use in mobile A/C applications, but are still turning up in vehicle systems anyway because of their cheap price.

Flammable refrigerants pose a significant danger to the occupants inside a vehicle should a leak occur. A spark from a cigarette or a switch can ignite the leaking refrigerant causing an explosion and turning the car into a bomb. It only takes about four ounces of a flammable hydrocarbon refrigerant such as propane or butane to create an explosive mixture inside a typical automobile passenger compartment.

Frontal collisions can also release the refrigerant if the condenser is damaged, which could result in a severe underhood fire causing extensive damage to the vehicle.

There is also a risk to service technicians who might encounter leaks while servicing a vehicle or operating recovery/recycling equipment.

Merely topping off an A/C system with a flammable hydrocarbon can make the entire charge of refrigerant flammable if the amount added exceeds a certain percentage: 10% in the case of an R-12 system and only 5% with R-134a! That is only three or four ounces of hydrocarbon depending on the overall capacity of the system.

Flammable refrigerants are used in some stationary applications as well as truck trailer refrigeration units because there is less risk of leakage or fire. Also, the amount of refrigerant is typically much less, only five or six ounces total instead of several pounds.
----------------------------- END QUOTE ---------------------------------

http://www.aa1car.com/library/tr497.htm

Please fix your leaky AC system and use the approved freon before your luck runs out questrade.

-- Edited by SELLC on Wednesday 24th of November 2010 06:33:36 PM

Date: 10:43 PM Nov 24, 2010

Well there you have it folks Mr SELLC says..." straight propane should never be used in an automotive AC system! period." But it would be ok if you used a more dangerous and by dangerous i mean explosive product like R12 which has a 20% mixture of isobutene.

Now the reason i have not become angry or frustrated by SELLC's lack of reasoning or common sense is because i do actually understand where he is coming from in this discussion.  Its important that someone who serves the public by selling them products have to meet federal regulations or they can become personally liable for any damage or personal injury that results from not following the rules.

In this case the EPA or ( Environmental Protection Agency) says that there are EPA approved forms of refridgerant and illegal forms of refridgerant. What makes the refridgerant illegal? Well any refridgerant that has high levels of hydrocarbons such as Propane, Isobutene and butane. But wait one minute here, thats what R12 is. Its propane and isobutene yet i can go down to any automotive store here in town and order R-12 for my car no problem. I believe the reason that i have easy access to R-12 is only because I live in Canada and the EPA laws apply to the United States which is why it must be difficult to now obtain R-12 in the United states because they view R-12 as being destructive to the ozone layer which is another festering pile of horse shit pardon my language.

Now the EPA are the big shots that make the rules so what makes a refridgerant legal or illegal for use in your car? Well, its approved if the EPA says so and its illegal if the EPA says so. But you must be thinking that they need a good reason to make something illegal. NO THEY DONT. All the EPA has to do is say its illegal and create some bullshit story as to why its illegal and it dont matter what the facts are or what common sense says or even what you think.

However MR SELLC, just because the EPA prints something and makes it law does not make it correct and while that law may give you the right to promote that law it also does not mean that you are right either. It only means that you are just as wrong and screwed up in your reasoning as the dick heads who inforce the law to the detriment of the publics pocket book.

I had to laugh when SELLC said that this was a dead issue. What makes it dead? Is it dead just because the EPA made the use of straight propane illegal? SELLC that does not make it a dead issue, that just makes it arguable especially if that law doesnt make sense.

If the EPA pulls a string, it makes SELL C's head pull back. If the EPA pulls another string, it makes his head go forward. If the EPA pulls them one after another really fast it makes him nod yes sir, yes sir just like a puppet. They make the rules and SELLC says yes sir. The general public doesnt know better so they don't question the so called technician because he is the one that knows best, right? WRONG.

SELLC, I dont blame you completely for the law being the way it is I'm just disappointed that you back it up even though it doesn't make sense and so you share part of the blame for backing up a bullshit claim that states straight propane is unsafe. I just whish you would cut those strings attached to your head and start thinking for yourself and stop allowing yourself to be pushed around by these so-called big shots.

If they make a law i want to know more than what the law says, i want to know if its practical, if it makes sense. You should do the same. You know the general public doesnt give a shit what the law says about AC refrigeration. They just want it to keep them cool on a hot day, thats right, they just want something that works and is safe and thats exactly what straight propane does regardless of what the law says and regardless of whether or not you support it.

Now just for the record SELLC, you have still declined to answer my last posting and so i will post it again. Here it is, and i know you dont have an answer so i dont blame you if you try to dodge the question again. Remember SELLC we need you to cut those strings.

I am only taking the time to respond so other people know that your ideas are dangerous and not worth the risk.

You have still not addressed why it is that R12 is still being sold as a viable and safe refridgerant when it is made up of 80% propane and 20% isobutene which is used in the production of high octane fuel. I went to Canadian tire today and they had boxes full of R12 forsale that i could purchase for $25.00 per can. Why would i pay that much for a bottle of propane when i can put the same dam thing in my ac for .10cents!!! If it is so wrong to use propane, then why the hell do i have an R12 system on my car!!!
R12 IS PROPANE!!! and its still being sold and used as a viable refridgerant for automotive ac applications. Not considered safe for automotive AC systems??? you say. Well need i remind you of a recent comment made by yourself. Take a look.
......
Sorry bub... I use either 134a or R12 for my own vehicle. I DO NOT USE PROPANE FOR MY AUTOMOTIVE AC SYSTEM. Furthermore I have said many times in here that AC work is not the cornerstone of our business. We might do two or three AC jobs per year, and even then we sublet the evac and recharge.

Excuse me? what was that you said? did you say you use R12 but donot use propane? I think this is where we disagree the most, however my point is based on the solid fact that  R12 is propane, infact 80% of it is propane and no one denies that but if you do, well your just not being honest and based on what i have heard from you so far your comments have not been sincere or logical at all. Infact R12 is a refined propane which means its even more explosive than regular propane because its mixed with isobutene used in the production of high octane fuel, thats right, it actually makes the fuel more explosive. SO I NEED YOU TO ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTION FOR ME.

Why is it that you use R12 which is a more explosive form of propane but when it comes to using a safer product like regular propane you are against it?
reason # 1- you did not know that
             #2- you dont care, you just want to be right even though you know your wrong
             #3- I have made this point twice and both times you ignore it because you know that this point alone proves everything you have said on this subject is dishonest and misleading.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

You keep asking the same questions, I guess you just don't understand.

I have already given you links that explain in great detail why you SHOULD NOT use propane. I am at a loss for words.

Asking me a question then giving me 3 bullshit answers to choose from is somewhat lame. My response is #4 (None of the above) and I will fill in my answer,

"Propane is not safe to use in automotive AC systems!" and, "I would never burden anyone with the liability of such ignorance, be it the new owner, or the unknowing mechanic who has to service the system later down the road".

Questrade you seem to want to help people, but in this case you are not helping people. Most folks don't know ANYTHING about AC systems and when faced with an expensive repair bill they could try taking your advice and seriously injure themselves or loved ones. It's just not worth it. Your right to be stupid is your right.
There was this one member a few years back that was having some problems with his port work on his vehicle. Perhaps you could help him out, or try out this method and report back to us how it went. Here is the link -

http://autotrend.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=91042&p=3&topicID=14209659

After reading that thread after all these years it reminded me of you and your dangerous suggestions.

Date: 02:10 AM Nov 25, 2010

I asked the question again because you didnt answer it so i will ask it again

You have still not addressed why it is that R12 is still being sold as a viable and safe refridgerant when it is made up of 80% propane and 20% isobutene which is used in the production of high octane fuel. I went to Canadian tire today and they had boxes full of R12 forsale that i could purchase for $25.00 per can. Why would i pay that much for a bottle of propane when i can put the same dam thing in my ac for .10cents!!! If it is so wrong to use propane, then why the hell do i have an R12 system on my car!!!
R12 IS PROPANE!!! and its still being sold and used as a viable refridgerant for automotive ac applications. Not considered safe for automotive AC systems??? you say. Well need i remind you of a recent comment made by yourself. Take a look.
......
Sorry bub... I use either 134a or R12 for my own vehicle. I DO NOT USE PROPANE FOR MY AUTOMOTIVE AC SYSTEM. Furthermore I have said many times in here that AC work is not the cornerstone of our business. We might do two or three AC jobs per year, and even then we sublet the evac and recharge.

Excuse me? what was that you said? did you say you use R12 but donot use propane? I think this is where we disagree the most, however my point is based on the solid fact that R12 is propane, infact 80% of it is propane and no one denies that but if you do, well your just not being honest and based on what i have heard from you so far your comments have not been sincere or logical at all. Infact R12 is a refined propane which means its even more explosive than regular propane because its mixed with isobutene used in the production of high octane fuel, thats right, it actually makes the fuel more explosive. SO I NEED YOU TO ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTION FOR ME.

Why is it that you use R12 which is a more explosive form of propane but when it comes to using a safer product like regular propane you are against it?

ANSWER THE QUESTION THIS TIME

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

STOP IT!

I do not use straight propane because it's not an approved refirdgerant and as I have said many times I would not place an unknowing passenger, buyer or mechanic at risk by doing something as STUIPID as what you are suggesting.

Hey PowerStroker! This guy said he is willing to recharge your womans AC system for .10 cents a pound! Are you interested? LOL

PUTTING PROPANE IN YOUR AUTOMOTIVE AC SYSTEM IS DANGEROUS!
DONT DO IT!

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Wow, how is it, that it's only now that I find this gem of a thread... Probably because I have nothing to do with Mercedes.

Ok, I'm hopping up on my little soap box now. For what it's worth, I am certified in handling refrigerants by the EPA, and I am certified to perform automotive AC repairs by both ASE and Ford. I also graduated from Dunwoody College of Technology in Automotive Service and yes, automotive HVAC was a part of the curriculum.

During the summer I do many AC repairs, and during the winter I still frequently need to recover, evac and recharge systems during the cab off dis-assembly procedure to do engine work on Diesel trucks - because I have to disconnect the manifold line at the compressor as part of that procedure... So I'm not without some experience. I even have an entire drawer of my toolbox dedicated to AC equipment including an expensive Yokogawa heated diode leak detector.

I almost never agree with Rex, which is well known. In fact, I think Rex is one of the most arrogant dorks I've ever encountered. but in this case I do agree with him. In fact I find it comical that he is assuming the role that I usually take in technical debates against him - how do you like that Rexy boy, see what I have to deal with all the time? Now you know how I felt when you made dumbass assertions like being able to compensate for road crown with a toe adjustment... The correct answer would have been caster. Or the time you said President Obama's 10 day trip to India cost 2 BILLION Dollars. So don't get too cocky Rex, just because you're right on this issue, doesn't mean you're not still a dumb fuck. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes.

Anyway, there are a couple issues that need to be addressed. R12 is not flammable being the first issue. And I'm pulling this information from my Dunwoody notes. The chemical name for R12 is Dichlorodifluoromethane. The "Di-chloro" part of that is the reason it has been discontinued in automotive use because it signifies 2 Chlorine atoms. Chlorine destroys Ozone in a big way. The 3 elements in R12 are Chlorine, Fluorine, and Methane. Certainly Methane by itself is flammable, but much like how hydrogen is flammable by itself, but isn't when it's bonded with oxygen in the form of water - so too is R12 not flammable even though one of it's component chemicals would be by itself. I think the confusion about butane somehow being part of the mix is that there is a similarly named refrigerant called FR12 that does contain butane, but that's a different refrigerant all together, and I don't know what applications FR12 was even used for. R12 is also a greenhouse gas by the way. I should also mention that it would be a really bad idea to test my assertion that R12 is not flammable because even though R12 doesn't increase the size of a flame, it does become Phosgene gas when exposed to flame - which is a very deadly chemical that was actually used as a chemical weapon in WW1. Interestingly enough, the reason I know this, is because I vividly remember my instructor at Dunwoody for HVAC - Mr. Rasmussen talking about this very subject. He even had a relic to show our class of an old leak detection device for R12 AC systems which consisted of a propane torch with a suction tube upstream of the flame. He even demonstrated it for us very briefly. The way it worked was, you would light the torch and drag the suction tube slowly around the AC system components. If the flame changed color, it indicated a leak in the system... It also created phosgene gas as I was told so it was a very brief demonstration, but I clearly remember the color of the flame is the only thing that changed, not the size of the flame. Obviously that method of detecting leaks is no longer the industry standard, it was just an interesting part of his lecture that stuck with me.

R134a (Tetrafluoroethane) is also non flammable and doesn't contain any chlorine - so it doesn't effect the Ozone as much, but it is still a greenhouse gas and will probably be banned soon for that reason.

I realize there are a lot of do it yourselfers out there who like the satisfaction they get by fixing something themselves instead of paying a pro to do it. I realize that charging ones own AC with propane might render someone that exact satisfaction, but I would encourage you not to.

Certainly there are safety concerns with the flammability of propane, but as far as I'm concerned there is a more pressing issue... Contaminating AC service equipment. You see, shops that service AC systems don't generally use the little 12oz cans you can get at the auto parts store, we use large machines with 30 pound kegs of refrigerant attached. If we get lazy and don't use the refrigerant identifier on a vehicle before we hook up the charging station, we can contaminate our entire supply of refrigerant, and any other vehicle we connect it to before we realize what happened. That is a nightmare scenario I want no part of, and I'll admit that at the dealer level, where most everything we do is still under warranty, we almost never use the refrigerant identifier and just hook the charging station up because we assume nobody would mess with a car that's still under warranty. The problem is that this breeds really bad habits on the part of technicians, and when customer pay jobs do come in that may have a system contaminated with hydrocarbons, it puts all of our customers, as well as the very expensive shop equipment at risk. A dealership is only as good as the worst AC tech after all, and not everyone I work with is even certified to do this stuff, sadly. At any shop I've ever worked, and there have been a few, If a car came in for AC work and we detected incorrect or contaminated refrigerant, we would send the customer away. It requires a dedicated machine to recover contaminated refrigerant... A dedicated machine no shop I've ever worked at ever bothered buying, we just send those problem cars away because doing so is a lot cheaper than buying an extra $3000 machine to recover contaminated refrigerant from the random bone head who shows up with such a dilemma once or twice a year. The idea of just venting the contaminated stuff to the atmosphere is a big no no. I won't do it, nor will any self respecting technician.

My advise is simple, If you're going to save money by doing something yourself, at least research what you're doing, and do it right. Spend a few bucks more to buy the proper refrigerant at the auto parts store. I promise you'll get the same level of satisfaction by doing the job yourself. R134a is not expensive, disposing of contaminated refrigerant is very, very expensive. You need to be EPA certified to purchase R12, but anybody can buy R134a, at least so far. If you have a R12 Vehicle and want to retrofit it to R134a yourself. At least have a shop recover any remaining pure R12 from your system first, then have at it. With the price of R12, a shop may even recover it from your system free of charge in exchange for keeping the refrigerant. Even if they do charge you to recover it from your system, I doubt they would charge more than a half hour labor for it, and you'll sleep well knowing you did right by the environment. Anything worth doing, is worth doing right.

In essence, If you fill your ac with propane, try and avoid driving through brush fires if at all possible. Just hope your system doesn't ever have a problem beyond a simple low charge that requires some actual diag, because If you bring that car to me, I'll tell you to get the fuck out of here and don't ever come back.

And I'm off the soap box now.

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Saturday 4th of December 2010 02:21:49 AM

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Apparently nobody is challenging my above statements. I'll take that as a win!

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

I thought it was a well written piece, even though it pains me to admit it. Then again I was never the one who suggested such an ignorant idea of using propane as a refrigerant. Guess this is the kind of "quality" information the guys paying $100+ for them Premium Memberships on BenzWorld.org can expect. LOL!

Date: 01:11 PM Dec 20, 2010

well since my last comment I have charged the ac on 4 different vehicles using propane. I come from a small town so everybody knows everybody and once in a while i will see a vehicle that i have repaired in the past. I admit that i am a backyard mechanic and have been for the past 17 years and yes i have charged a hell of alot of ac systems using propane including my own. with this in mind you can see why i argue my position on using propane as refrigerant and refute the position of those who claim that it is unsafe.

Never even once in the past 17 years has anyone come back to me with with ac problems after i repaired the leaks, made sure the compressor had sufficient oil and then charged the system. The only thing i hear is " Holy shit, is that ever cold". Ac contamination is a term that these so called pros use to make it sound like its a really bad thing when you mix refrigerants but really its not contamination at all its just a mixing of 2 very similar things and has no negative effects on the system.

If Power Stroker and SellC would get off their asses and actually work with these ac systems they would know that their claims are inaccurate. In my 17 years of working with propane refrigerant I'm not just guessing or making random claims based on inexperience. With that in mind i also know that SellC and PowerStroker donot actually believe what they are saying, they are just a couple of puppets that say and choose to believe everything they read without even caring about what the truth is. But when it comes to making money it really doesnt matter to them what the truth is just as long as they can keep promoting their bullshit and charge high prices uneccessarily.

Vac the system? Dont contaminate your system by mixing refrigerants? Dont mix compressor oil?
Where does this bullshit advice come from? It comes from guys who have never even held a wrench in there hand and just blabber what they read from the EPA who are just a bunch of fuckheads in my opinion. Pardon the language. Then they go on blog sites like this like they are the gods of giving automotive advice. Everyone else in their opinion is stupid because they dont follow what the EPA says.

Anyways im running out of time here for today and wont be returning to this blog as i can see this discussion is just a waste of time. What i do works and im going to keep doing it and i dont need a dealership to charge or work on my AC system and neither does anyone else.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Well shit... I guess you and your small town customers that know everyone will have something in common when your ignorance finally hurts someone.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Anonymous wrote:

I admit that i am a backyard mechanic and have been for the past 17 years

Obviously

Never even once in the past 17 years has anyone come back to me with with ac problems after i repaired the leaks,

That doesn't mean they never had problems later on, it just means they didn't bring their car back to you.

Ac contamination is a term that these so called pros use to make it sound like its a really bad thing when you mix refrigerants but really its not contamination at all its just a mixing of 2 very similar things and has no negative effects on the system.

I don't care what kind of special coctail of refrigerants you run in your vehicle. I just dont ever want the charging station at my work to ever be hooked up to one of those vehicles.

If Power Stroker and SellC would get off their asses and actually work with these ac systems they would know that their claims are inaccurate.

I do work on these systems... Professionally actually. I'm not a backyard mechanic, I'm a full time dealership master technician.

In my 17 years of working with propane refrigerant I'm not just guessing or making random claims based on inexperience.

I don't doubt that propane works as a refrigerant, and I don't care whether it's safe or not for you or your customers. My concern is that one day, one of your customers is going to roll their piece of shit in to my dealership, and contaminate our charging station and any car we connect it to afterward. To assume that you will be the only person who will ever work on those cars ever again and thus it doesn't matter, is very misguided.

With that in mind i also know that SellC and PowerStroker donot actually believe what they are saying, they are just a couple of puppets that say and choose to believe everything they read without even caring about what the truth is.

Exactly how long have you been reading my posts? Do I strike you as some kind of liar?

But when it comes to making money it really doesnt matter to them what the truth is just as long as they can keep promoting their bullshit and charge high prices uneccessarily.

I have no financial interest in selling one refrigerant over another. The entirety of my paycheck is the result of billable LABOR hours produced. My interest in using the correct refrigerant isn't based on greed, it's based on professionalism, something you wouldn't understand.

Vac the system? Dont contaminate your system by mixing refrigerants? Dont mix compressor oil?
Where does this bullshit advice come from? It comes from guys who have never even held a wrench in there hand and just blabber what they read from the EPA who are just a bunch of fuckheads in my opinion.

And what exactly is your backround that somehow qualifies you to make such a determination? I don't think 17 years of hacking things in your back yard meets the test of being somehow superior to the EPA, or for that matter professional technicians. Just because you can make an AC system blow cold with propane, doesn't mean you're some kind of genius. Anybody can do something the wrong way, it doesn't impress me.

Pardon the language. Then they go on blog sites like this like they are the gods of giving automotive advice. Everyone else in their opinion is stupid because they dont follow what the EPA says.

It's not just the EPA, it's the industry itself. And yes, your opinion is a stupid one.

Anyways im running out of time here for today and wont be returning to this blog as i can see this discussion is just a waste of time. What i do works and im going to keep doing it and i dont need a dealership to charge or work on my AC system and neither does anyone else.

nice knowing you.