Taboo Jewish questions. Help me understand! - Auto-Trend Repairs and Service Information Forums

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Taboo Jewish questions. Help me understand!

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Judaism is a religion, not a race. There are Jews of all kinds of races, just as there are Christians of all kinds of races.

America is only 230 years old... The only "American" Race would be for Native Americans who have lived here for thousands of years before Columbus ever found the place. For the White American citizens, we are simply relocated European descendants, and thus are undeserving of our own race, because we really aren't any different from the Europeans, just re-located. It would be like having a race of Minnesotans and a race of Michiganites, there's no point.

Jews believe Jesus existed, and so do Muslims. They do not believe that he was actually Christ, the son of God, but rather just a prophet. Jesus was a Jew, but when he claimed that he was Christ, some believed him and became the first Christians, the other Jews didn't believe it, and after Jesus had performed several miracles and had a huge and growing following in his new religion of Christianity, the Jewish leadership viewed him as a threat and ordered his Crucifixion.

That is a very condensed version of it, but essentially, the Christians are waiting for the second coming of Christ, and the Jews are waiting for the first.

Now as long as we're on the subject of how religions originated, lets talk about Islam... The Old testament tells us what happened, and essentially, Abraham and Sarah, who lived long before Jesus was born, were promised by God that they would have a child. They became impatient with Sarah's apparent inability to become pregnant, and decided to use a surrogate mother named Hagar - an Egyptian. Hagar gave birth to Ishmael who was raised by Sarah and Abraham. Eventually, when Abraham was 100 years old, God made good on his promise, and Sarah became pregnant with Isaac. After Isaac was born, Sarah decided to cast away Ishmael and his mother because she didn't want another woman's son to be heir with hers.

The descendants of Sarah's natural born son Isaac became the Jews, and the descendants of Ishmael became the Muslims... If you think about it, the Muslims may just have a legitimate gripe against Sarah, Abraham, and their descendants.

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Friday 18th of February 2011 12:40:01 AM

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PowerStroker wrote:
Now as long as we're on the subject of how religions originated, lets talk about Islam... The Old testament tells us what happened, and essentially, Abraham and Sarah, who lived long before Jesus was born, were promised by God that they would have a child. They became impatient with Sarah's apparent inability to become pregnant, and decided to use a surrogate mother named Hagar - an Egyptian. Hagar gave birth to Ishmael who was raised by Sarah and Abraham. Eventually, when Abraham was 100 years old, God made good on his promise, and Sarah became pregnant with Isaac. After Isaac was born, Sarah decided to cast away Ishmael and his mother because she didn't want another woman's son to be heir with hers.

The descendants of Sarah's natural born son Isaac became the Jews, and the descendants of Ishmael became the Muslims... If you think about it, the Muslims may just have a legitimate gripe against Sarah, Abraham, and their descendants.

Gosh that's a whole lot of history in a nut shell PowerStroker... I am impressed!

Perhaps the reason I am so lacking in details is because I have always been able to "feel" god, and thus never spent a whole lot of time looking for him. I am very tight with god actually, well most of the times and then the others I pray forgiveness knowing it might make me feel better about something, but the people/situations who were victims (myself included) would never forget. I guess that's a good thing.

I am a FIRM believer that modern day web forums and immediate media have left me questioning many things written. I see history re-written every day on web forums by people who wish to well.... "Re-Write" history to their liking. I often times wonder that things written and passed down let's say 2011 years ago could have been subjected to such "revisions" and "Re-Writing" to other peoples "liking". Therefore I have always trusted the source.

I could go on and on about religion as I see it, however I am not capable of expressing such excellence and would only do it injustice by trying to express something so beyond my comprehension. And let's face it, when is the last time you had some chick with spandex and lightning bolts shooting from her hands ask "Are you a god"?

That being said, people trying to package and market God are the ones who walk very close to the edge. Weather or not ALL of them are genuine is irrelevant since they will all meet the same fate. Trying to use multiple complex stories to make fact of their "brand". A brand could be considered Judaism, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhism, Atheism or whatever. At their core is a huge question mark that leads to you and what you interpret, and then how you perceive what is going around YOU now.

I think religions can be made into two singular groups. Good (Positive) and Bad (Negative). I think all of the "Lessons" portrayed in ALL religions comes down to a cinematic portrayal of someones life's lessons based on the decisions they made.

Again it all comes down to perception. If you killed a pig to feed your family, many would see you as "Good", but if that pig was someones pet some might see you as "Bad". Who is good and who is bad here? Basic survival lessons I am sure have all been washed out and the last remaining ones have "Radical" labels and are surely on their way out.

Some of the things I hate most to talk about are Religion, Politics and Law. Every one of them deals with a perception gauged by the amount of people that assemble in support of whatever issue. These people could all be wrong, or they could all be right. It's that never truly knowing more than what YOU feel can be certain and even still sometimes people change, even YOU.

What no one can seem to explain is how to control the masses so that everyone is happy. In this case ignorance is bliss, if you don't know what a steak taste like, you sure as heck won't crave it. Anyone entrusted with any power will find themselves trying to play god. It's not until they start thinking they are god that all hell breaks loose. Isn't that the way all the biblical stories of all religions go?

So really PowerStroker... If anyone has a legitimate gripe it's ME. I am not pushing my brand on anyone, but I still know enough that there is a God. I'd imagine a person would spontaneously cumbust should they be even given a glimpse of the inner workings of God.

Then again I could be wrong... And we are all living in the Matrix.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PowerStroker wrote:

Judaism is a religion, not a race. There are Jews of all kinds of races, just as there are Christians of all kinds of races.

I see... So let me ask you this.. What "Race" would the original Jew's have been if we were to be back in biblical times? I think that would be a safe way to actually put a finger on the heritage of such Judaism.

Because Obama said this is no longer a Christian nation does that mean the Israel equivalent of our President will go on air saying Israel is no longer a Judaism nation?

Just tossing some things out there is all... Not trying to stir up any shit.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Um, I would have to believe that back in biblical times, in that region of the world pretty much everybody was of the Arabic race, including Jesus. But keep in mind biblical times reach all the way back to GENESIS - the creation of the planet... A time when there really weren't different races. For a race to develop characteristics like skin color, hair color, eyes and other distinguishing features - this is a result of the human body adapting to a particular enviornment over the course of many many generations. In biblical times, I highly doubt any such differences had developed yet.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Ah well... I'm still impressed with your short summerazation of the diffrent religions. We will give you a gold star for that.

At any rate, I was reading an article about Egypt allowing Iran to float their boats thru the cannal when I stumbled across this little statement,

"It has an alliance with Iran which has deepened along with Tehran's isolation from the West over its disputed nuclear programme, which the Jewish state sees as an existential threat."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41666399/ns/world_news-mideast/n_africa/

So it would seem that I am not the ONLY person who see's them as a Jewish state/nation.

Care to take a bite of that one PowerStroker?

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

I view Israel as a predominantly Jewish state too, I'm not sure I'm following your point.

America has a predominantly Christian population, but we have people of all religions... And all races, just like Israel. That's why we seperate church and state in our Constitution. It doesn't make everybody happy, but it makes us all free.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PowerStroker wrote:

I view Israel as a predominantly Jewish state too, I'm not sure I'm following your point.

Well if you and many other's consider Israel to be a predominantly Jewish state then wouldn't it be safe to say they are trying to create their own race?

Not following my point still? Well the original question (which you avoided), was this "What race would a Jewish person tick on a census forum". Were talking about someone that claims to have heritage back to the Jewish state. And since all non Jew's must be "Converted" in order to be considered Jewish in the eyes of their cult I think it's an important question. Catholic folks also call for this conversion process.

Following my point yet?

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

I imagine most of them - the white ones would claim to be Caucasian.

For many many years, Israel didn't exist. The Muslims also claim the territory of Israel as their holy land, and for the most part, the Jews had been driven out of Israel and lived mostly in Europe which is why so many Jews are white. The territory we know as Israel had been known as Palestine. It wasn't until after WW2 that the United Nations took the territory of Palestine away from the Muslims and re made it as historic biblical Israel as a form of reparations for the horrible genocide that the right wing fascist Hitler inflicted upon the Jews.

This is one of the reasons there is so much tension in the middle east. Not only were the descendants of Ishmael (Muslims) cheated out of their inheritance by Sarah, but now they have had what they view as their holy land taken away and given to the descendants of Isaac (Jews).

I believe the UN should have divided the territory so both the Jews and Palestinians could each have a place to call home, but it didn't happen. This is why so many Muslim nations HATE Israel and the United States, because our government is the biggest friend Israel has.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Very interesting...

So how come none of this has been taught in schools? Or perhaps I just wasn't paying attention? How come information like this is not included in news reports? Or am I just the only small percentage that didn't know? Or perhaps some will say your story is wrong?

None the less it's very interesting. Good show PowerStroker.

I also thought that "right wing fascist" comment was a clever attempt for you to smear the Republicans. I always thought Hitlers rule was considered socialistic, which is a common trait of the Left Wing Democrats more than the Right Wing Republicans. I know you never made mention of Democrats or Republicans, but the term you decided to use "Right Wing" makes a bold implication.

I guess we are all a little guilty of trying to re-write history to our liking. That said I found 90% of your responces in this thread to be very informative. Thanks.

PogoPossum · RIP - Veteran User

Arabic "race"? Is this like Black, white, red, yellow? Or is that like Muslim, Christian, Hebrew or Agnostic?

What "race" are you? Human is a good answer.... NASCAR and NHRA are pretty good too....

Where can a thread like this go?

Date: 04:29 AM Feb 19, 2011

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Pandora appears to be Caucasian. She had better close the box quick before hope escapes.

PogoPossum · RIP - Veteran User

In 66/67 I lived in Montreal, P.Q. The area we lived in had a lot of Jewish people - not many orthodox Jews (typified by dress codes) but 'practicing' Jews all the same. I say 'practicing' in the same way I would use it for Christians - the ones that go to church on Sunday and spend the rest of the week fucking people over or what-have-you.

So... here I am - baptized High Anglican but living the life of an agnostic. And for that brief period in my life (when I called Montreal home), some of my best friends in the world were Jewish. And never once did their religion affect the way we thought of each other. More-over... I don't recall my religion (or lack of it) affecting our relationships.

Rex... I'm not sure about the US but I don't feel that religion should be taught in schools (though there are many "separate" schools based on religious beliefs or doctrines in Canada). If you want to understand any particular religion better... I can only suggest you research it. I don't mean go around flipping over rocks hoping you find bad stuff....

Hitler based his entire career on hating Jews.... I notice your question wasn't "what race are Muslims" or "what race are Rastafarians" or "what race are Catholics".

Like I said... I was baptized high Anglican... What "race" am I? Or do you want to know what colour am I? Where was I born?

Does it fucking matter?

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PowerStroker wrote:

Pandora appears to be Caucasian. She had better close the box quick before hope escapes.

Which "Box" are we talking about PowerStroker?

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PogoPossum wrote:

In 66/67 I lived in Montreal, P.Q. The area we lived in had a lot of Jewish people - not many orthodox Jews (typified by dress codes) but 'practicing' Jews all the same. I say 'practicing' in the same way I would use it for Christians - the ones that go to church on Sunday and spend the rest of the week fucking people over or what-have-you.

Fucking people over you say? I guess that is the disconnect between survival and the new testimate. The old rule of "only the strongest will survive" has now been changed to "strength in numbers", or what-have-you.

So... here I am - baptized High Anglican but living the life of an agnostic. And for that brief period in my life (when I called Montreal home), some of my best friends in the world were Jewish. And never once did their religion affect the way we thought of each other. More-over... I don't recall my religion (or lack of it) affecting our relationships.

I don't think this thread had anything to do with being friends with Jews, or if their religion would affect the way people thought of one another. The thread was very specific and asked questions about the "Heritage" of the Jew, which PowerStroker was kind enough to point out that Judaism is a religion and not a race, yet we still have a "Jewish" state.

Rex... I'm not sure about the US but I don't feel that religion should be taught in schools (though there are many "separate" schools based on religious beliefs or doctrines in Canada).

Well that entire idea was "Out the window" when Obama said "America is no longer a Christian nation". Where was the outrage then Pogo? Of that's right, you are a maple leafer. I think there is a big difference between teaching religious beliefs and educating kids about history and the differences of opinions between the religions. I think PowerStroker would be a good teacher of these things, since he does not go too far in depth and offers up a "Cliff notes" explanation.

If you want to understand any particular religion better... I can only suggest you research it. I don't mean go around flipping over rocks hoping you find bad stuff....

I am really not interested in researching other religions. I have a hard enough time trying to get thru the Bible of my religion. I think you could read the bible 5 times in a row and still have much more to learn by reading it again, sort of like watching a movie more than once; you always seem to pick up on little details you missed.

Hitler based his entire career on hating Jews.... I notice your question wasn't "what race are Muslims" or "what race are Rastafarians" or "what race are Catholics".

My question was VERY specific... So fucking what? I never brought up Hitler in this thread. My question was genuine and I am still somewhat confused because if Judaism is a religion and not a race, then why do we have a Jewish state? I don't think there is a race issue here Pogo, I think it's more of a religion issue.

Like I said... I was baptized high Anglican... What "race" am I? Or do you want to know what colour am I? Where was I born?

Have I ever asked what race you were? No! Have you ever made statements regarding your religious beliefs? No! So why would that ever be something I would ask you?

Does it fucking matter?

I'd like to think it does, but not in the way you are thinking it would.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

SELLC wrote:

Which "Box" are we talking about PowerStroker?

I was talking about the box in the picture posted by Anonymous. It is a depiction of Pandora from Greek Mythology. Her curiosity lead her to open a box which allowed all things that now plague mankind to be released. Luckily she closed it in time to keep one thing from escaping - hope.

So now when someone is talking about "opening a Pandora's box" you can now know it means to dive in to something without knowing the full consequences... Which could be dyer.

It was the anonymous poster's way of telling you that this thread is a potential "Pandora's box."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora

By the way, the fact that there is a "Jewish State" doesn't mean they are trying to start their own "race." There are many "Muslim States" in which the overwhelming majority of the population observes the Muslim religion. Those countries generally have a high percentage of people from the Arabic or African race. I would bet if you went to the Middle East and asked a random Muslim on the street if the United States of America was a "Christian state," he would probably say yes.

Now that I think about it, the only person I can think of who actually tried to create a new "race" was Hitler. He wanted to create the "Aryan" race, in which one must certainly be white, Christian, and straight, but preferably with blonde hair and blue eyes. Hitler himself didn't meet his own ideal standard. He suffered from a superiority complex that resulted in the brutal murders of millions of fellow humans he didn't feel met his Aryan standard. We should be mindful of these lessons from history we learned the hard way, and never repeat them.

Like Pogo, I really don't think race or religion is the relevant point. All I care about is SPECIES, which would be human. Actually we are far outnumbered by just about every species of bacteria, but humans are higher on the food chain, and this even applies to our brothers and sisters from other races and religions despite what Hitler and Fox News may have told you.

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Sunday 20th of February 2011 05:31:07 AM

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PowerStroker wrote:

Like Pogo, I really don't think race or religion is the relevant point. All I care about is SPECIES, which would be human. Actually we are far outnumbered by just about every species of bacteria, but humans are higher on the food chain, and this even applies to our brothers and sisters from other races and religions despite what Hitler and Fox News may have told you.

I don't want you thinking that I hate people because of race or religion. I genuinely had questions, and while I may have opened Pandora's box by asking the question I am in no way saying that I hate Jewish people, or any people based on race or religion.

Perhaps this is why they do not touch on these issues in school, because it is very easy to be mis-understood.

I agree with you about Hitler trying to create his own race of blond hair and blue eyed people. It's very strange considering Hitler himself had brown eyes and brown/black hair.

Again, I do not subscibe to Fox news and Hilter was long since been dead and gone before I was born. Don't take the thread the wrong way, as I am not here to promote or condemn any race or religion. I simply wish to better understand people and part of doing that is learning what makes them tick.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Ah, very well then. A sincere desire to understand is actually a very noble thing. As I think back on my public school education, I can recall a brief overview of middle east tensions, but they didn't spend much time talking about it, and it was just one of many topics that were covered in world history. I wish they would have spent more time on it since it's still a very relevant issue.

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Monday 21st of February 2011 02:16:05 PM

PogoPossum · RIP - Veteran User

SELLC wrote:

PogoPossum wrote:

In 66/67 I lived in Montreal, P.Q. The area we lived in had a lot of Jewish people - not many orthodox Jews (typified by dress codes) but 'practicing' Jews all the same. I say 'practicing' in the same way I would use it for Christians - the ones that go to church on Sunday and spend the rest of the week fucking people over or what-have-you.

Fucking people over you say? I guess that is the disconnect between survival and the new testimate. The old rule of "only the strongest will survive" has now been changed to "strength in numbers", or what-have-you.
I see a lot of people that go to church once or more a week to absolve themselves of sin. Confess to one particular God and you are free to fuck people over until the next sabbath.

So... here I am - baptized High Anglican but living the life of an agnostic. And for that brief period in my life (when I called Montreal home), some of my best friends in the world were Jewish. And never once did their religion affect the way we thought of each other. More-over... I don't recall my religion (or lack of it) affecting our relationships.

I don't think this thread had anything to do with being friends with Jews, or if their religion would affect the way people thought of one another. The thread was very specific and asked questions about the "Heritage" of the Jew, which PowerStroker was kind enough to point out that Judaism is a religion and not a race, yet we still have a "Jewish" state.

By "Jewish state", do you mean Isreal? This is the creation of the United Nations after WW2

Rex... I'm not sure about the US but I don't feel that religion should be taught in schools (though there are many "separate" schools based on religious beliefs or doctrines in Canada).

Well that entire idea was "Out the window" when Obama said "America is no longer a Christian nation". Where was the outrage then Pogo? Of that's right, you are a maple leafer. I think there is a big difference between teaching religious beliefs and educating kids about history and the differences of opinions between the religions. I think PowerStroker would be a good teacher of these things, since he does not go too far in depth and offers up a "Cliff notes" explanation.

In all honesty, the only Obama-isms I care for are those ones that directly influence me... Americans,for the most part, have no concept of Canada. Shit... Americans seem to have little concept of America... I might be a rabid Canadian without being a Christian... I might be a Muslim without being a Yemeni... Do we need to separate church and state? Without a doubt.... I want my Canadians to be 100% Canadians. If they also want to be Scientologists... I just pray it doesn't get in the way of them being Canadian.

If you want to understand any particular religion better... I can only suggest you research it. I don't mean go around flipping over rocks hoping you find bad stuff....

I am really not interested in researching other religions. I have a hard enough time trying to get thru the Bible of my religion. I think you could read the bible 5 times in a row and still have much more to learn by reading it again, sort of like watching a movie more than once; you always seem to pick up on little details you missed.

The bible.... "I read it on the internet... it MUST be true?". I read it on a billboard, I read it in a newspaper, I saw it on TV.

Hitler based his entire career on hating Jews.... I notice your question wasn't "what race are Muslims" or "what race are Rastafarians" or "what race are Catholics".

My question was VERY specific... So fucking what? I never brought up Hitler in this thread. My question was genuine and I am still somewhat confused because if Judaism is a religion and not a race, then why do we have a Jewish state? I don't think there is a race issue here Pogo, I think it's more of a religion issue.

Hitler didn't care if it was a race issue or a religious issue... An identifiable group of people was his target. Genocide is genocide... whether the dead are Jewish or Asian or dwarves or redheads or whatever. If you single out Jews as a 'race' or if you single out Jews as a 'religion'... is there a difference?

Like I said... I was baptized high Anglican... What "race" am I? Or do you want to know what colour am I? Where was I born?

Have I ever asked what race you were? No! Have you ever made statements regarding your religious beliefs? No! So why would that ever be something I would ask you?

I can honestly say that you have never asked either of these questions of me... But, with the birth of this thread, I feel it is only a matter of time. YOU ripped the lid off Pandoras box... Deal with it.

Does it fucking matter?

I'd like to think it does, but not in the way you are thinking it would.

It Don't fucking matter. If we can't get along... if we can't deal with each other, it don't matter. It isn't your colour (that part would indicate "race", wanker)... It isn't your religion (did you realize that people of every race can be Muslim... or Catholic... or... ), It isn't the food you eat (Kosher food is healthy, for the most part) and eating fish regularly (like on Fridays) is prolly a good thing...

It doesn't matter what colour you are.... It doesn't matter what church you go to on what day.... What does matter?

Have you proven that I can trust you?

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PogoPossum wrote:

Have you proven that I can trust you?

You can trust me up to the point it comes down to you or I. There are some people I would place before myself, but you just aren't one of them. Sorry.. That doesn't mean I wouldn't go out of my way to help someone out, it just means I wont PUT MYSELF out to help someone out. I really shouldn't put anyone before myself, but when it comes to some people I am just stupid like that.

I am somewhat of a realist, and even if you tried to lie and said otherwise, I would expect the same from you in return.

PogoPossum wrote:

By "Jewish state", do you mean Isreal? This is the creation of the United Nations after WW2

Yeah that's what I interpet to be "The Jewish State". But before you go thinking I came up with the name, know that I only refer to it as the Jewish state because many others do. From what I understand there was great conflict back in the Nazi days, and there was also great conflict during biblical times. I was not old enough to follow with my own eyes the unfolding of ANY.

PogoPossum wrote:
I can honestly say that you have never asked either of these questions of me... But, with the birth of this thread, I feel it is only a matter of time. YOU ripped the lid off Pandoras box... Deal with it.

Well in the religion I "practice" and I say practice because I put it up there with Law, Politics, and Medicine considering that all of which deal in perception, or some may call it opinion. While you may learn a vast amount along the way there will always be questions that can not be answered.

So as I ripped the lid of Pandora's box I felt little worry about what may result. I am well aware that there are some questions out there that can not be answered. I am not superstitious because my faith trumps any Voo-Doo mind control BS, if I can believe in a book about men I have never met, I sure as hell can make up my own mind and you aren't going to find anyone crazier than me.

They don't call it Greek mythology for nothing,

My regards to Pandora.

Now allow me my selfish plug,

And just for you Pogo;

-- Edited by SELLC on Monday 21st of February 2011 11:06:25 PM