Maybe PowerStroker already knew this, but Fords is now charging a core charge of $500 per converter if you buy them from the dealership!
While it's their prerogative, I just find it very odd because Emissions rules say that used converters can not be re-sold -- and outside of melting them down for the precious metals there is no real way to rebuild them. Then there is the fact you're buying the converters as "new".
So people quoting jobs to replace catalytic converters need to be aware that if they are buying them from Fords, they will have to turn in their old ones or pay a $500 core per unit!
This would really suck if you had your converters stolen, but most people with insurance wouldn't be paying anyway -- the insurance company would! This just means it will get spread out to all of us in higher premiums.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
I've got a 2017 Expedition here with the 3.5L V6 EcoBoost where the left drivers side catalytic converter is operating below efficiency... I fear the converter is clogged or at least coated -- but the front inlet and outlet turbo tubes are coated in oil sweat, and it would appear both turbos are leaking coolant at the bottom line too (not a whole lot but you can see a drip, wetness and the classic white stains from dried coolant!)
I ended up going with aftermarket Magnaflow converters because they were better priced and I have had good luck with them on past cars where they didn't have issues stripping all the hydrocarbons like the really cheap ones you see online.
I'm worried at least the drivers side is leaking oil internally into the exhaust and causing the converter to foul out -- in which case the new one would probably clog up in short order too! It sucks because the truck almost has 150,000 miles and since it's a rustbelt car the exhaust hardware at the muffler is pretty much shot, and getting the pipe to separate is pretty much not going to happen without pulling the entire Y... I guess I'll know more tomorrow when it's off and I can see up in the turbo and also at the honeycomb substrate -- but I have always said these twin turbo V6's were going to be money pits once they got over 100,000 miles. It's not just Ford's either as everyone is going turbo now days.
All I know is I'm not opening the new boxes for the converters until I know 100% these turbos aren't internally leaking oil into the exhaust. Because at that point, I can't guarantee the new ones won't plug up in short order. I should also mention that a turbo replacement does not look like any fun AT ALL!
You have to admit, these newer engines with twin turbos, dual overhead camshafts with four cam phasers and timing chains have a lot of potential to get VERY expensive up in the higher miles! It makes it hard for the mechanic because you could fix everything up with new converters and turbos and then not long after a cam phaser could crap the bed! And as bad as it is for the mechanic, the customer is just getting pummeled with major repairs! I get that new SUV's run north of $60k but damn...
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
I do a lot of cam phasers on those, and we do see a lot of cat failures too, usually the left one which is a lot easier than the right. We don't see a lot of inner turbo oil seal failures on those though. When that happens usually there is a huge amount of smoke out the tail pipe. That's more common on Explorers.
And yeah, it sucks to remove the turbos. Often bolts break off in the manifold so we prepare the customer for manifolds too when we get one.
Given your experience with these Ford truck/suv vehicles I went ahead and was able to remove just the left converter. You were also right that there does not appear to be any internal oil leaking and the impeller blade looks good too!
Right about the time I was feeling good, like I'd be finished tonight -- the customer told me he just want's both sides done anyway. So now I get to wrestle with the other side, jack up the transmission and remove the crossmember.
Another good thing was the converter showed signs of the honeycomb substrate and metal flake at the bend in the pipe. Getting ready to run my bore scope in it for a better look.
Coolant leak is small, but appears to be.a steel crush style gasket. Does not look fun either! Looks like.a super small leak, what do you think? Do they all do that? Wait until it starts leaking more?
Guess I can check on them gaskets tomorrow when I visit the dealership for the door check. In your experience, are the oil/coolant gaskets on the bottom of the turbos easier to do while the converters are off?
I really wanted to just throw this left converter on and call it a day... but I guess they want to keep the car for another few years so if it's going to save me headache doing them now while the converters are off, I don't want to -- but I'd look into it.
I'll post some photos, even though I know you've seen it all many times before. Sometimes it might help someone who hasn't -- and at least you can check out the new Mangnaflow kit.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
For the right converter, you will have to jack up the trans and remove the crossmember. Make sure to remove both oxygen sensors before trying to remove it otherwise they will snag in the heat shields and really piss you off.
The coolant lines that go into the turbos, if you have the old style (I think 2017 is) uses a snap to connect fitting with a wire clip style "jiffy tite" retention system that keeps a steel tube seated into the fitting's o-ring. The steel lines become rust pitted on the ends, and the fitting O-rings dry out. The fix is to remove the affected turbo, replace the 2 fittings on the turbo, the 2 fittings on the engine, and the 2 steel lines. You need to do all fittings and both lines because just disturbing them can cause ones that aren't leaking now to start leaking.
Assuming you do have the older style with the wire clip coolant line retention system here are some of the part numbers to do ONE turbo coolant line and fitting job (double quantities to do both turbos):
2X BL3Z-6A968-C fittings at turbo, 1X BL3Z-6A968-B and 1X BL3Z-6A968-JD fittings at engine. You will also need some things I don't have the part numbers for as follows:
- 2 coolant lines to each turbo (found in same catalog pic as the 6a968 fittings), 3x turbo to manifold torx head bolts, turbo to manifold gasket, gasket for turbo oil drain tube, nuts for turbo to cat (may need studs too if they come out or need to be cut), possibly a new manifold because they warp and may have broken off bolts, in which case a new manifold to head gasket and 9x studs and nuts, and 2 gallons coolant.
One thing to mention, where the line goes into the engine block side fitting, it won't actually quite snap in and be held in by the wire clip. Don't worry about that one, instead it is held in with a bolt that goes through a tab on the coolant line.
WOW! That sounds like a lot of work, especially considering how tightly packed everything is in there. So what you're saying is the catalytic converters must be removed to externally re-seal the unit. Got it, and it makes sense.
But let me ask you this -- at 150,000 miles wouldn't it just be a better idea to replace the entire turbo since you're saying it's a high probability that it will need to be removed anyway? This whole broken manifold bolt business you speak of is bringing back bad memories of another one that is still here and turned into an absolute project! (Big Blue)...
I think perhaps I will just replace the converters and leave the turbos alone at this time... do most of them start leaking at 150,000 or sooner? General rule of thumb (on the internet) is that these baby turbos are only expected to last 150,000 miles anyway! So it makes sense these two are showing small signs of coolant leakage. It would also explain why the front turbo intercooler and boost hoses have a sweat coat of oil on them, I see that a lot on all turbos with higher miles and usually you just let it ride until the turbo craps out. In my case I just wanted to be sure it wasn't belching oil internally causing the converter to plug -- and it's not. However I should mention all three coil packs have been replaced on the left driver side... two of them over a year ago and one of them last month -- so maybe them misfires over time caused the converter to become coated/plugged.
I appreciate all your insight, but based on what you said I don't think I'll even touch the turbos unless they are getting replaced -- if only because I am not willing to stand behind the re-seal on a turbo nearing the end of it's usual lifespan.
So here is the left side I have been talking about for other people who might be sitting at your desk doing research --
2017 Ford Expedition 3.5 Liter V6 Eco-Boost -- Trouble code P0430 - Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 2)
Here are the new converters... the box for the right side is HUGE.
I pulled off the left converter by using a torch to heat up the flange to turbo nuts, and then I cut the pipe right where the flange connects with a sawz-all.
Once it was off I had to cut the clamp and pull out the other part of the chunk. This is always the tricky part -- but I do have a welder if things got real bad.
You can see the platinum particles from the converter coming apart here
On my bore scope the back side of they honeycomb looked fine but the front side looked melted and plugged.
Inside the turbo did not look wet... just the normal amount of soot I'd expect at 150,000 miles.
But what has me worried is the small leak that is starting to form on both sides on the underside of the turbo
For now it just seems to be a drop of coolant... no real accumulation under the car.
However the front side of the turbo has the classic oil sweat on the turbo intercooler pressure tube and the suction tube.
That being the case, I think I'd recommend replacement of the entire turbo rather than just a re-seal because it's at that 150,000 mark and I just don't feel confident putting a 1 year warranty on a re-seal when it's close to the end of it's service life.
You can actually get the turbos out through the wheel wells without removing the cats, but certainly having the cats out of the way makes it easier. If it's just leaking coolant from the fittings, those just thread in and out, but the turbo has to come out to do them. Then there are the 2 fittings on the engine... One on the back of the cylinder head, which really sucks to get to on the Left side, and one on the block - which requires removal of the AC compressor on the right side. Those fittings have an o-ring inside that deforms and leaks over time, and the ends of the tubes become pitted where the o-rings seal against them. Also, the original exhaust manifolds tend to warp and cause the rear studs to break off. The new manifolds have a slightly different design that utilizes different threaded holes in the head to reduce warping. Those exhaust studs usually don't put up too much of a fight coming out with a stud puller... Usually.
There is a tool for disconnecting those jiffy-tite fittings, but I never use it. It's easier to use a long right angle pick to remove the metal clip, then the tubes slide right out with some wiggling.
As far as expected turbo life goes, it depends on how well the vehicle was maintained and whether it got regular oil changes or not. It would be hard to justify a turbo replacement if all that's wrong is a leaking coolant fitting. But updated exhaust manifolds would be good to do if you have the turbo off.
This connection you reffer to as "jiffy-tite" fittings are generally considered "quick disconnects" -- and yes, I too like to use an angle pick to remove the clip also. They are similar to transmission cooler line quick disconnects on the radiators. But these are not leaking on the turbo.
Instead it would appear that the two hole metal crush gasket is what's leaking... the one held on by two Torx bolts on the bottom side of the turbo, which I would assume is the return side for the oil and coolant.
My point is -- at 150,000 miles I can not re-seal this unit and give it a 1 year warranty... the front pipes are sweating oil and while it might not be blowing oil out the exhaust side -- there is some getting by on the boost side. You ever pull off an intercooler and have a bunch of oil inside it? Well, that is from worn turbo seals. To me reman turbos are in order, this way ALL the seals are replaced giving the customer the best value while preventing more serious problems when they just outright fail.
So we're doing both the turbos now too.
So I guess I'll update this thread once the new converters are installed... and I'll start a new thread on turbo replacements a little while after that.
That metal crush gasket only seals oil into and out of the turbo. Coolant doesn't flow through that. Having coolant pool up on it like that indicates a slowly leaking coolant quick disconnect fitting up higher on the turbo.
Also, seeing some oil in the intercooler tubes is normal, it's PCV carryover. But if you ever see oil coming into the exhaust, that would be a failed turbo.
At the dealership we offer a 2 year unlimited mile parts warranty, but only on parts we actually replace. We would not warranty an entire turbo if all we did was remove it to replace the coolant fittings and lines, and no one should expect us to. If we did turbo coolant lines and fittings, and 9 months later the turbo blew up and needed complete replacement, that would be a separate customer pay issue.
Yes, I realized that lower crush gasket was only for the oil supply/return last night when I ordered in two new turbos and complete lines...
I'm also under the assumption that I'll have to remove both side wheel wells to make this job a little easer digging the old turbos out of there.
That is one thing about a Ford truck -- it never fails, just endless work. No way would I ask a customer to pay me to remove and re-seal turbos at 150,000 without replacing them! In addition to these external seals, there are internal seals, bearings and other moving parts that are sure to fail shortly after and unlike you, I have to look my customer in the eyes when they come back (where you have a service advisor/middleman for that part of the job).
You make a good point on the PCV system, however these turbos still can fail on the internal seal on the outflow side and sweat/pump oil into the tubes and intercooler... I had a customer once with a failed turbo that put almost a quart of oil in his intercooler! Since you make a good point on the PCV, I should probably look into replacing that just to be thorough since we have all new turbos, lines and converters going on. After all it does have 150,000 miles on it likely.
