Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Splaining 2A


Veteran User

Status: Offline
Posts: 464
Date:
Splaining 2A


From a wonderful Tumbler account:

here: 

https://theheartbrokenlibertarian.tumblr.com/post/169639890186/inkedandproudinfidel-proudliberal11-letsHi I  

OH MY GOSH. THIS SHIT AGAIN?

Okay, Im bringing this back. Sorry to alla yall whove had to sit through this before. But for fuuuuuuuuuuucks saaaaaaaaaake people!

 

Where does the Second Amendment say musket? Show me where it says musket. In fact, show me where it even says GUNS. Show me where it puts ANY limits on what arms we can keep and bear. Show me the words.

You cannot; they are not there.

@proudliberal11 If what you posted is really what you believe - and I do honestly mean this in the nicest possible way - then you are not qualified to speak on the subject of the Second Amendment with any modicum of authority. You can have your own feelings and opinions, of course, but you clearly do not have the facts, and you do not understand the law, its adoption, the reasons behind it, or its intent. If you just want guns gone or want new laws, then simply petition the government to begin the process of repealing the Second Amendment and/or amending the Constitution (good luck with that, though), but please dont try to change or erase history!

There is NO DEBATE on the meaning or intent of the Second Amendment. That was settled and made clear a long time ago, and it has nothing to do with what you think a militia is, for one thing, and nothing to do with muskets either, for that matter. 

The Founding Fathers didnt just shit out the Constitution and the Bill of Rights overnight or off the top of their heads. They didnt forget about it until the night before it was due. These things were discussed and debated and researched and proven over the course of several months, and those discussions and debates were thoroughly documented. This drafting would have been equivalent to the 9/11 news coverage of the day! It was a BIG DEAL, even then; they knew they were building history. People were watching, recording, discussing everywhere. Its ALL written down.

The Framers were extremely clear about exactly what they intended, solid evidence of which you can find by studying contemporary literature and documentation surrounding the authoring of the Second Amendment. Letters, speeches, publications, etc., written by and to the framers, as well as the public, - which clearly spell outthe full intent of the law, explain the law in simple terms, and give insight into popular and official opinion about the law - are still freely available today. Ive linked a handful, but its very easy to find this information, and I encourage - nay, beg - you to seek it out. 

Here are just a few examples, though, in case you dont feel like researching something so extremely important:

> I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788 

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country.
- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789 

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776 

To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. 
- Richard Henry Lee, Signer of the Declaration, A Framer of the Second Amendment in the First Congress

What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787 

[On our military superiority over a tyrannical enemy] This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy.
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778 

"To disarm the peoples the most effectual way to enslave them.
- George Mason, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops.
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

That could not be more clear. This militia is us. Its you and me and everyone reading this and everyone else. THE MILITIA IS THE PEOPLE, THE CITIZENS, YOU AND ME.

If nothing else, please do take a look at THIS DOCUMENT. It lays out the history and the clear reasoning behind the Founding Fathers drafting of the Second Amendment. It is thoroughly sourced, and it is detailed.

As you can see, looking at what is here, juxtaposed with what we have in place today, we have already strayed extremely far from the original intent of the document as well as from the letter of its law - we have already infringed our God-given (and merely government-protected) inalienable rights to hell and back - and we the people are NOT happy to give away another inch, no matter how mean you feel icky-o guns may be.

And as for the document itself:

Let me break the Second Amendment down for you.

BUT FIRST! Before I get into that, you must understand that language is fluid and that it changes over the years, that the definitions of words change and adapt all the time. For example, the word great used to exclusively mean very large, the word terrible used to exclusively mean awe-inspiringly, the word sick used to exclusively mean ill, the word woman used to exclusively mean adult person born with a vagina, and so on. Therefore, you must look at the words and phrasing from the point of view of 1791, the time it was written, and you cant apply our current use of language to it, and you must keep that in mind as you read older texts. And just because language changes, that does NOT mean the original intent of words changes, too. Quite the contrary.

On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed.
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823 

ALSO:

Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government. 
James Madison, on the creation of the Constitution

So ok, sit tight, here we go.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

WELL REGULATED

MEANS: hooked up; well outfitted; well provided for; has lots of all the latest and greatest things; well-armed
DOES NOT MEAN: heavily legislated; under intense governmental scrutiny; subject to lots of laws and ordinances

MILITIA

MEANS: the populace; a general, unofficial body of those citizens physically able to engage themselves in combat; those of us who have guns; a self organized and self managed group of people gathered for the purposes of defense
DOES NOT MEAN: official, government-sanctioned, -approved, and -run military installment that is slightly less formal than the Armed Forces; a junior or local sub-branch of the federal Armed Forces

BEING NECESSARY TO

MEANS: is the reason why; is required for; also, the wording here, and the preceding comma, replaces using because this at the beginning of the sentence as we would use it today - its just rearranged
DOES NOT MEAN: if it becomes needed; only when needed; in times of threat but not otherwise

THE SECURITY OF A FREE STATE

MEANS: the defense of freedoms; the protection of rights and freedoms; maintaining sovereignty; protection from takeover (foreign or domestic)
DOES NOT MEAN: keeping us safe from any danger whatsoever; the protection of individuals from individuals

THE RIGHT

MEANS: full personal entitlement; the freedom; the free ability; the personal decision whether or not to; the God-given, free and clear, dependent only upon existing, choice
DOES NOT MEAN: sometimes, depending upon some peoples opinion, the ability to; the ability to, dependent upon whether or not one is allowed

OF THE PEOPLE

MEANS: all legal inhabitants; all citizens of legal age of majority/responsibility
DOES NOT MEAN: some citizens, if they meet certain criteria; those citizens who have certain abilities or characteristics; only those citizens who qualify; citizens who meet certain restrictions or requirements; all citizens except those who do not meet certain qualifications

TO KEEP AND BEAR

MEANS: to participate in any actions associated with; to possess and carry and use in any manner; to have; to acquire; to carry on their person or in their conveyance
DOES NOT MEAN: to simply have and carry; to own but have stored elsewhere; to be issued as and when, according to circumstances; to have a limited number of; to own but leave administration of to others; to have but with restrictions

ARMS

MEANS: weapons or armament of any kind; offensive or defensive weapons; ordnance; guns, missiles, swords, knives, cannon, explosives; ammunition for weapons; any instrument intended for defense or offense against any person or thing; any item necessary to operate or maintain the above
DOES NOT MEAN: certain kinds of weapons; some but not all defensive implements

SHALL NOT BE

MEANS: must never, ever, under any circumstances, be, no matter what
DOES NOT MEAN: should not be; will hopefully not be; can only be under some conditions; can be, if legally restricted; is allowed to be if new laws are created

INFRINGED

MEANS: taken away; restricted in any way; put conditions or requirements upon; diminished; changed or updated; made new laws about; limited in any way; re-legislated; detracted from; invalidated
DOES NOT MEAN: taken away, unless lots of people think it should be; changed, unless opinions change; updated, if people think thats what they want

THEREFORE, were the second amendment written today, it would read:

Because a thoroughly hooked up and well-armedpopulation is the only way our nation will ever be able to remain free and sovereign, and the only way we will ever keep our precious rights and liberties, every single citizen of this country is freely allowed to possess any firearm or weapon and to use said weapon in any way, and nobody is allowed to ever change, restrict, or limit laws about, or prevent any citizen from owning, keeping, or using any kind of firearm or weapon, even if people think thats what they want.

Just to reiterate the parts that people most often misunderstand:

Well-regulated DOES NOT MEAN strictly governed. It means well outfitted, hooked the fuck up.

Militia DOES NOT MEAN official, state sanctioned, junior or local branch of the federal armed forces. It means citizens with guns, and thats it. In fact, the Framers did not want a federal- (or state-) run standing military; they saw that as a threat to liberty. Its very clear that what they meant was THE PEOPLE.

Keep and bear DOES NOT MEAN simply possess and carry. It means participate in any and all associated activities.

Arms DOES NOT MEAN guns, or certain guns, or guns with certain features. It means weapons, of any kind.

Just look these things up, please, or follow the links provided.

> And COME ON. Use just a little common sense. If the Second Amendment were written exclusively to arm the military, or police, or officially government sanctioned militias, then WHY would it very explicitly say the right of THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms? Why would these educated, intelligent, careful, and conscientious men make such a stupid contradiction in one of the most important documents theyd ever written? Thats simply ridiculous! They didnt make any mistakes, and we havent been somehow blindly running the country wrong for 230 years. Its written correctly, and the meaning of it is quite clear if you just read past the first few words. 

The right of THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Thats unmistakable. Really.

AND AS FOR THE ARMS THEMSELVES..

Nowhere does the Second Amendment (written in 1791) say anything about muskets, nor even guns, nor does it mention or even insinuate any limitation on what arms a person can keep and bear.

Even further, in case you somehow actually didnt know this, there were basically fully automatic machine guns BEFORE the Second Amendment was written, and yes indeed, these were known and accounted for when the document was drafted.

Pepper-box revolver from 1790 or earlier

image

Puckle gun, invented in 1718 (complete with relevant text)

image

Belton flintlock rifle, 1777 

image

Girandoni air rifle, 1779 

image

(Thank you @guns-and-freedom for this list.)

And thats only a few of the guns. I havent even mentioned all the other kinds of ARMS that were available before the Second Amendment was written, those ARMS upon which no restriction shall ever be put, according to the Constitution and Bill of Rights:

MORTARS

Mortars are projectile launching arms that have been in use since the 1400s.

By 1775, there were nine different Land Service and four Sea Service Mortars in the British inventory alone.

imageimage

This French mortar formed part of the defenses of Louisbourg during the British siege of 1758. Made of cast iron, it could propel a 60-kilogram (132lb) shell up to four kilometers (2.5mi):

image

Thats just a few examples.

CANNON

There are so many cannon, and their history is so rich and deep, that its impossible for me to get into it here. You know what a cannon is. Everybody does so did the Founding Fathers.

Cannon were built for offense and for defense, for battle and for siege, for land and for sea. They can be mounted on ships, they can be wheeled on wagons or purpose built conveyances, and they can even (but not often) be hand held. 

image

These things are old as dirt. Historians are pretty sure the first one was invented in China in the 1100s, and they became standardized and common in Europe as far back as the Middle Ages, though probably much earlier.

image

This incredible fort, built in 1593, was designed specifically to defend against cannon:

image

HOWITZERS

Speaking of cannon, lets not forget the Howitzer, which also dates back to the 1400s and was used commonly as early as the 1600s. Its somewhere between the weapon commonly referred to as gun and a cannon, as it has a shorter barrel, smaller propellant charge, and higher trajectory than the cannon.

This beautiful 24lb Howitzer entered service in 1790:

image

British and American Howitzers from the Revolutionary War, ca 1770s:

image

BO

 



-- Edited by Stan_147 on Monday 30th of April 2018 09:06:49 PM

__________________
I am sorry, Senator. I have no clear recollection of the events in question!


Veteran User

Status: Offline
Posts: 464
Date:

There is more at the link, starts at  Bows & Arrows, it wouldnt copy and paste from my phone.

 

Discuss, add to or debunk... but, be prepared

to cite U.S. code and back up your argument.



__________________
I am sorry, Senator. I have no clear recollection of the events in question!


FAR BEYOND DRIVEN

Status: Offline
Posts: 4779
Date:

No argument, I want 2 of everything. Lately our VFW was closing. Tried to buy the howitzer. "NO Sir that belongs to Uncle Sam. Fuh dat I want it.



__________________
Drive it like you stole it


Veteran User

Status: Offline
Posts: 464
Date:

Students from 300 Schools Pledge to Walk Out of Class in Stand for the Second Event

Students from 300 schools have pledged to walk out of class May 2 in support of a pro-gun Stand for the Second event.

Stand for the Second was organized by Will Riley, who is a senior in New Mexicos Carlsbad High School.

Riley is not a gun owner, but he is dedicated to ideals and freedoms central to Americas founding. He penned a Washington Examiner op-ed in mid-April to explain:

For the past month, Americans have been subjected to wall-to-wall cable news coverage of a well-orchestrated campaign to dismantle the Second Amendment. This campaign, organized and funded by national gun control groups, has exploited a handful of grieving teens from the Parkland, Fla., high school shooting tragedy.

As a high school senior in Carlsbad, N.M., who supports gun rights, I am disgusted by how these students and their adult handlers are trying to define my generation. My generation is not anti-Second Amendment. My generation does not agree with retired Justice John Paul Stevens that the Second Amendment should be repealed.

In fact, millennials are more pro-gun than our parents are. Its time the media starts hearing from the millions of young Americans who respect the Constitution and recognize that the Second Amendment is fundamental to our protection and safety, as both individuals, and as a nation.

The Stand for the Second website is emblazoned with these words from Thomas Jefferson: Al tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.

Riley is asking pro-Second Amendment students to refuse to remain silent. He suggests all student participants walk out of their schools at 10:00 a.m.

AWR Hawkins is an award-winning Second Amendment columnist for Breitbart News, the host of the Breitbart podcast Bullets with AWR Hawkins, and the writer/curator of Down Range with AWR Hawkins, a weekly newsletter focused on all things Second Amendment, also for Breitbart News. He is the political analyst for Armed American Radio. Follow him on Twitter: @AWRHawkins. Reach him directly at awrhawkins@breitbart.com. Sign up to get Down Range at breitbart.com/downrange.

confuse


__________________
I am sorry, Senator. I have no clear recollection of the events in question!


FAR BEYOND DRIVEN

Status: Offline
Posts: 4779
Date:

Good for them.

__________________
Drive it like you stole it


FAR BEYOND DRIVEN

Status: Offline
Posts: 4779
Date:

gun-rights-states.jpg



__________________
Drive it like you stole it


FAR BEYOND DRIVEN

Status: Offline
Posts: 4779
Date:

break-glass-shooting-600-la.jpg



__________________
Drive it like you stole it


Veteran User

Status: Offline
Posts: 464
Date:

Not-so-discrete Bump. Lol



__________________
I am sorry, Senator. I have no clear recollection of the events in question!


Guru Guest

Status: Offline
Posts: 63
Date:

I cannot post menes but.

Freedom of speech  can only be utilized while using a quilled Pen not when one uses arvanced technology such as the internet or a computer.



-- Edited by Hammerin frijoles on Saturday 2nd of June 2018 11:33:18 PM

__________________
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.



Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse
Powered by ActiveBoard