Stock timing only has 1 keyway and the factory doesn't bother degreeing the cam to make sure it's perfect. They think close enough is good enough. I wanted to get it perfect.
Due to machining tolerances in replacement timing gears and camshafts, as well as how loose or tight a timing chain is, has an effect on valve timing. By degreeing the cam, you can make it just right. Have you never degreed a cam and just go by whatever the gears say?
+2A (yes it's redundant) on an indexed chain and sprocket kit is two degrees advanced.
I understand what you are saying in being perfect -- but I don't understand why that would translate into using cheap gas? Perfect is perfect, chains stretch and cheap gas is cheap gas.
If your camshaft was indeed "stock" it would have run out perfect using the ZERO setting.
The only other explanation would have to do with your own error in measurement. At what lift point did you measure duration? There are many standards for measuring how long the valve is open (duration).
__________________
What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
My cam is a Melling stock replacement, but it was not made in the same tooling Ford used back in the day, so there can be manufacturing variances... Which is why people degree camshafts. I used the intake lobe center method. The basic jist is first you use a dial indicator on a deck bridge over the piston to find true top dead center and calibrate your degree wheel to read 0 degrees when the piston is at the highest point. You actually go back and forth both directions to verify calibration of the degree wheel as indicated by the piston going down the same measurement when turning the degree wheel the same amount both directions. Then with another dial indicator on the solid part of #1 intake lifter you rotate the engine until you find the highest lifter position (intake lobe center) and look at the degree wheel. In my case, spec called for 110 degrees on intake lobe center but that's not what I was reading on the degree wheel when using the 0 keyway. The cam was actually retarded using the 0 keyway. It wasn't off by much, but I ended up having to switch to the 2A keyway, find true TDC again, recalibrate the degree wheel, and turn it until the #1 intake lifter was at the highest point. By using the 2A keyway I got it to 110 degrees as spec calls for.
-- Edited by PowerStroker on Wednesday 24th of July 2024 09:20:34 AM
I bet you he's spending that extra on Premium fuel now though... let's ask him!
Hey PowerStroker, you still using that cheap gas in your fresh rebuilt engine?
I don't mean to answer for PowerStroker, but I already asked that question in the 460 thread, & his answer is he's still using the regular gas, which is why he left the engines compression-ratio as std at around 8.8 : 1...
1. Ford engineers designed the motor to run on the lesser fuel, that's why the compression ratio is lowish. And I'm sure the ignition & EFI maps are set correctly, plus the O2 sensor will keep things where they need to be.
2. The amount of dollars saved per-year on a vehicle that runs regular would be substantial, especially when average mileage is less than 10-mpg.
3. 9ctane doesn't make more power-per-se, but offers a cleaner & longer controlled burn, & has additives to keep everything clean from the pump to the engines valves & pistons.
4. If Ford demanded 9ctane fuel, he'd use it.
5. Check-out the old cylinder-head pictures, the engine was running really-well.
Perhaps someone with a claimed 1,600 lb/ft rattle-gun did the damage to the bearings when undoing the crank-bolt to change-out a leaky front seal at some point ?
1st of all, your name isn't PowerStroker... I'd also add his compression was increased when the heads got decked -- not to mention he used different heads... no mention of cc's for either.
2nd - WTF are you talking about? A 1991 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL also gets about 10 miles to the gallon city driving and REQUIRES Premium fuel!
3rd - Premium has NOTHING to do with making more power and EVERYTHING to do with staying stable enough under certian load conditions so that it doesn't pre-ignite (diesel). Why you have to act stupid? Or did you not know this?
4th - Fords also claims their newer engines only need oil changes every 15,000 miles! Okay -- sure! Ford also told it's 6.0 PowerStroke Engine customers they were "maintaince free"... in other words Fords is full of shit and could care less if some cheap ass wipes out his thrust bearings -- in fact they want people buying new trucks! So what Ford says really needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
5th - Dude didn't take his heads apart for a burnt valve, or a crack... he took it apart because he got glitter in his oil -- and clearly from the bearing photos it was the result of preignition.
Also, it wouldn't matter if someone with a 1,600 lb/ft impact gun used it to undo the crank bolt... so what? Now a dip-shit pounding his balancer on with a hammer would slam that crank up against the thrust bearing! But that has nothing to do with a powerful impact.
Ultimatly you have people out there spending thousands for performance, yet they are too cheap to run the good gas... like some dip shit putting regular gas in a Lamborghini...
IIRC that truck is a regular cab with a short bed -- aka "sport truck"...
People in this country are free to fuck around and find out. I don't care what he puts in his gas tank! I just think it's funny AF!
R1. You really need to read more carefully & slowly Stellar...Though your replies are funny, but at your expense...
R2. Now that's shyte mileage Stellar...You may have some problems somewhere imo...PowerStroker's truck is a full 2.0 ltrs larger engine, or 120-cubes larger, & lives in a truck for the same MPG...It seems that Ford have really made a superb big-ass V-8 here...No wonder it was produced for 30-years, & the 560 maybe 4-years...
R3. Read my original reply SLOWLY, or refer to R1.
R4. I agree. But the 460 is a kick-ass sleeper, & I'm sure the oil will get changed out when needed, I'm guessing 3,000 miles maximum. *** Important to remember here folks, that apart from the motor-industry, every one else that uses / needs oil, works on an HOUR time-table not mileage.
R5. See R1. & R5 in earlier post above.
Pre-ignition is normally associated with a sound heard as the throttle opens, to that like "marbles being shaken in a glass jar'. The result is essentially a loss-of-power, & if left, will potentially wear-piston rigs, hole pistons, damage big-end-bearings & rods out-of-round, & possibly distort main bearings.
It is unlikely that a thrust bearing would shyte-itself from pre-ignition, since its not in the direct path of the force. The force hits from up to down & around within the cylinder, & against the rotation of the crank-shaft, the thrust bearing ensures that the left to right walk of the crankshaft is within its limited clearance allowable movement.
-- Edited by Rastus on Wednesday 24th of July 2024 09:13:57 AM
__________________
"Only an alert & knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial & military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods & goals, so that security & liberty may prosper together". Dwight D.Eisenhower.
Okay that's great and all... and everyone tries to preach center-lobe as all important -- but that's rookie stuff... the kind of stuff people like Rastus above would prattle on about.
To measure duration you need to know what value the valve is considered "open"... most US vehicles use the Crane spec of .050 as the "advertised duration", however ASE also has their own measurement of when they consider the valve to be open... this means the measurment of the valve to the valve seat.
Sounds like maybe you added in an extra 2 degrees because you were not taking into account WHEN the valve is actually starting to open.
Does that make sense to you? That is why most cams have an "advertised" .050 lift duration as well as a standard duration (which is sometimes even omited!)
You didn't give me the proper answer in your post above -- so I will assume you'll at least respect the FACT that you're running that engine +2A and respect the fact that a stock cam would not require any indexing at all -- if it were stock.
__________________
What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
In closing, I'll just say that running +2A on your crank sprocket you should FOR SURE be using premium fuel -- at least until you get back in there and re-measure, or set the cam back to the proper "factory" ZERO setting.
__________________
What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
respect the fact that a stock cam would not require any indexing at all -- if it were stock.
I fully respect the likelihood that if I were actually able to source a NOS Ford camshaft for this thing, I would probably achieve the same result I have now using the 0 keyway.
respect the fact that a stock cam would not require any indexing at all -- if it were stock.
I fully respect the likelihood that if I were actually able to source a NOS Ford camshaft for this thing, I would probably achieve the same result I have now using the 0 keyway.
You don't agree that it's possible that maybe you started measuring duration not knowing at what lift measument the valve was actually considered to be open?
Are you like Rastus, and wish to start challenging the math of Melling and Ford Motor Company -- like he tried to do with Milwaukee power tool ft/lb ratings?
At what measurment did you start measuring the duration? Are you saying Melling slipped you a hot cam with a stock cam card? I'm confused?
__________________
What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
At intake lobe center, the valve is full open. This is why so many engine builders use the lobe center method when degreeing a cam. Because finding the highest point point of lifter travel on a dial indicator is just a matter of watching the indicator move to the highest point. Did I bother verifying the valve open, valve close, and duration numbers - no. I just have to have faith that Melling ground those characteristics properly into the lobe profile, and based on how it runs, I'd say they did just fine.
Woah... So you only measured lift! that's all you had to say...
Don't get touchy...
I think perhaps, and I could be wrong -- only you would know... but perhaps your measurements were off because you didn't even take into account at what point the valve was actually considered opened to measure your duration.
I'd be more inclined to believe your measurements were off, than Melling giving you a hot grind with the duration required for +2A lift.
But again, were just throwing shit at the wall here... from politics to advertised duration -- we got a good "bead" on things around here.
-- Edited by SELLC on Wednesday 24th of July 2024 10:04:26 AM
__________________
What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
And the reason I use a redundant +2A expression is because the 2 degrees is in addition to the base timing -- built in at the cam sprocket.
2A to me would just be a 2 degree bump in timing thru the distribuitor with a base ZERO crank sprocket. Since most people don't have indexed timing chain sets -- I don't think it's really redundant, rather a more elaborate expression... like knowing when the valve is actually considered open -- or should I be more exact and say considered to be "starting to open" as it's just starting to ramp up... but it's important for measurement purposes... especially when you got some hot ass camshaft or something exotic where they don't want to share the specs and you have to manually measure the specs.
__________________
What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
More news on Bidung stepping down from his brother Frank. "Joes decision to drop from the race was based on his health." "we are spending what time we have left with Joe"
Man think he is gone now, some of us know he is gone and when. Wait for the public announcement soon.
If Biden is actually a body double now, anything he signs into law would be invalid since he is not actually the guy who swore the oath of office... I'd present evidence to a court about having this phony's acts overturned. And we should subpoena Obama for his birth certificate too. Better make sure he isn't a Kenyan agent trying to turn this great nation into a communist hellscape full of transgender snowflakes who eat babies.
I'd try the 5th Circuit Federal Court, they are totally on board with this stuff and would probably accept anything on a conspiracy theory website as probable cause. Lets get to the bottom of this before it's too late and the black lesbians take all our jobs and open the southern border to replace us with Mexican murderers and rapists!
I'm gonna go out and buy some more guns right now in preparation for Civil War II.
-- Edited by PowerStroker on Thursday 25th of July 2024 02:42:51 PM
If Biden is actually a body double now, anything he signs into law would be invalid since he is not actually the guy who swore the oath of office... I'd present evidence to a court about having this phony's acts overturned. And we should subpoena Obama for his birth certificate too. Better make sure he isn't a Kenyan agent trying to turn this great nation into a communist hellscape full of transgender snowflakes who eat babies.
I'd try the 5th Circuit Federal Court, they are totally on board with this stuff and would probably accept anything on a conspiracy theory website as probable cause. Lets get to the bottom of this before it's too late and the black lesbians take all our jobs and open the southern border to replace us with Mexican murderers and rapists!
I'm gonna go out and buy some more guns right now in preparation for Civil War II.
You know PowerStroker, sarcasm is totally wasted on the internet.
I used to think Shawnee may have been mistaken about the body doubles -- at least I didn't want to believe that Biden would pull a stunt like that however all last night and today I have seen people posting video of Biden recently being WAY TOO TALL... well over 2 inches! You can tell it's not him but they were parading him around like it was! Maybe Shawnee was right all along!
Your post above, even though I think you're trying to be sarcastic, does make some VERY GOOD POINTS! It's spot on with how over half the country is feeling right now!
__________________
What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
So this is what an insider (lol) has to say in an official article about Genocide-Joe & Ms.Harris, & the bollox in general...Perfect for this thread lol !
July 26, 2024
"Bye Bye Biden and the Kamala Sutra"
by Matthew Stevenson
Trying to make sense of President Joe Bidens withdrawal from the presidential race and deification of Vice President Kamala Harris into the pantheon of great Democratic leaders, I reached out to someone on the inside and got back the following email.
I am flattered that you think I know more than Morning Joe, even if the networks didnt trust him to mutter homilies in the wake of the Trump shooting and pulled him off the air, lest he ask one of his guests: Other than that, Mrs. Trump, what did you think of the rally?
No, I didnt get a heads up from anyone in Rehoboth Beach that Joe Biden would be falling on his sword (although hes been off his pins for several years), but the die were cast when George Clooney mailed off his nastygram to the New York Times to make the point that Joe failed to show the proper obeisance to the $30 million that all those Hollywood A-listers dropped into his lid. Money, after all, has to mean something.
Deep down, despite all the comparisons between Joe and a Second New Deal, the truth is that Biden isnt the sharpest tack in Washington. Yeah, he got ahead in the Senate, but that was only because he was one of the few Democrats who would carry Republican water, and occasionally mix it with Kool-Aid.
Look at the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings, and all those pubic hairs sticking to cans of Coca-Cola. Everyone who has spent more time in D.C. than your average tourist on an open double-decker bus knew that Thomas was guilty of far worse crimes than his crude, pornographic banter with Anita Hill, but Biden (remember, he was head of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary who approved Thomas?) gave him a hall pass so that on another occasion the Republicans might remember him at the office.
Obama picked Biden to be his vice president only because he was a southern senator dressed up as an East Coast liberal, and Barry figured he needed the votes of white men in suits who saw nothing wrong with frolicking at the deep end of the secretarial pool.
As vice president, Biden had one job, which was to sing lullabies to anyone losing sleep over the fear that Obama might come for their Audis.
Father Joes parish was all those wealthy Democrats who are worth millions, even billions, but who still become weepy over the warming climate, the St. Patricks Day Parade, and the syndicalist rights of the United Auto Workers (not that many donors are commuting to their hedge funds in an AMC Pacer).
To them, Biden made sure that not one corporate icon went to jail over the 2008 financial crisis (all that watered stock and underwater paper that Wall Street laid off on Uncle Sam courtesy of Barack and Joe).
In turn, they rewarded him with the Democratic nomination in 2020 (even after he finished fourth and fifth in Iowa and New Hampshire) and sufficient funds to defeat Donald Trump, provided that Joe understood his new job was to make sure that the federal budget functioned as the lender of first resortthere to make sure that corporate backhanders be christened as dispensations of the American Rescue Plan Act or the Inflation Reduction Act (in which about $783 billion in easy money was re-branded as fiscal and monetary prudence).
I know its vogue to imagine Joe as the next FDR, stitching together safety nets for those juggling on lifes high wires, but it makes more sense to think of Biden the Elder as a croupier or maybe a floor manager in the American Casinooverseeing the roulette wheels to make sure that the high rollers come away with more than complimentary drinks.
You name the problemUkraine, Gaza, the cost of insulin, etc.and Biden threw money at the problem, although always first to his Democratic constituents.
For example, in Ukraine, he didnt send Zelensky blank checks. Instead he allocated credits so that the U.S. government could buy the weaponry direct from American factories and always at the full retail (marked up?) prices. Ka-ching if youre Lockheed or Raytheon.
What went wrong with this Oval Office confidence game is that the Democratic rentier class began to get the feeling that their pit manager (Biden) was losing track of the chips, the house odds on the slots, or the combination to the office safe.
I doubt that the irony was lost on the casino owners (Barack Obama, the Clintons, Madame Speaker) that they gave the hatchet job to Danny Ocean (aka George Clooney) to tell Biden that his security badge was expiring and that his last candidate salary would be waiting for him at the window.
On the talk shows, the Democrats are all about the will of the people and inclusivity, but in the back rooms votes are counted like pieces of eight, and Biden was coming up short.
Mind you, the same crowd now giving him the bums rush were a month ago ridin with Biden, but party politics are little more than mob rule, the reason the U.S. Constitution makes no room for them.
I am guessing that the party hierarchs figured that they could beat the serially- indicted Trump with Biden or even one of those inflatable dolls people used to blow up and put next to them in the front seat, when driving through a rough section of town.
Then at the debate, even when Trump held a long conversation with himself (sharksshower headsand the late, great Hannibal Lecter), he still seemed more with it than Joe (no small achievement on Bidens part).
Biden wasnt relieved of his command for political reasons akin to some argument in The Federalist Papers; he was run out of town for putting the Democratic capital account at risk, much the way auto execs with sluggish sales numbers are given the boot.
So what does Kamala Harris bring to this wheel of fortune? Not a lot, sadly.
For the moment, as shes in the midst of a coronation (think of the applause meter on the 1950-60s game show, Queen for a Day), she has the winning look of a monarch waving from the balcony.
But who knows if she can prevail in a campaign based largely on a letter of reference from the Clintons and all those temper tantrums to the effect that if shes not given the nomination, shell take 100% of the black vote in 2024 and deliver it to Brother Wests Upper West Side revivalist tent, and swing the election to the Trumps Hole-in-the Condo Gang. In politics, this is know as a moral position.
Can Harris beat Trump? I cannot quite see it, despite all the staff-doctored polls showing her even with him in Michigan and Pennsylvania.
Trump is clearly psychotic, delusional, and criminally corrupt in everything he has done from porn-star accounting to trying to hang Mike Pence, but hes not running in November as a political figurewith arcane views about the gold standard or Quemoy and Matsu.
Trump isnt running for anything: hes choreographing a coup, but instead of seizing the radio station or nationalizing the copper industry, hes appearing in a one-man Gilbert-and-Sullivan musical that has the implausible storyline of a failed hotelier and small-time racketeer taking over the free world. Except outside his venues, the posters announce: BASED ON AN ACTUAL TRUE STORY IT REALLY HAPPENED.
Now for Kamala Harris to show up at intermission and complain about the libretto makes about as much sense as someone fact-checking Evita to ascertain whether Eva Perón ever did sing, Dont cry for me, Argentina.
It misses the point that everything in Trumps dark underworld is cleaned up in post-production, so you come away with the impression that he might be normal (which, I assure you, he is not).
Normal isnt groping and violating more than twenty women, defrauding the investors and lenders in a string of public and private companies, conspiring to overturn an election with goons and fake electors, or stealing state secrets and hiding them in a country club locker room.
To me, the Harris campaign will evolve into one long shout into the Donald Trump void, Kamala as the fact-checker-in-chief.
Yes, she might well be right, but the sad fact of 2024 is that the electorate only wants its politics to be those of a bizarre, slightly satanic reality show (which has extramarital sex, gun violence, Russian intrigue, and as many bad checks as Bernie Madoff circulated). It doesnt want a Whig politician campaigning against the injustice of the Enclosure Acts or the Corn Laws.
Circle back to me after the convention, when they kiss her ring.
Your friend.
__________________
"Only an alert & knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial & military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods & goals, so that security & liberty may prosper together". Dwight D.Eisenhower.